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One of the main things I discovered when learning new languages is that popular expressions, often rooted in metaphors deeply embedded in the collective conscio

One of the main things I discovered when learning new languages is that popular expressions, often rooted in metaphors deeply embedded in the collective consciousness of a group, are the hardest part. Consider pancakes for example. It's a simple word for americans. I think it brings the idea of breakfast, syrup, sweetness. Maybe it brings a different feeling depending whether you're an adult or not. Health might be something in mind. That's all in a single word that can mean a lot of things when used in metaphors. Now, let's look at what pancakes in Brazil mean, or "panquecas". It's a savory dish, for lunch or dinner. It brings the idea of meat, and tomato sauce. It's not an everyday dish. It's related to family meals, special occasions. The brazillian panqueca is more like a creppe, but not like american-made creppes, and it definitely does not bring the same associations to mind. Both dishes seems to come from an earlier, much older tradition that most north americans and brazillians alike probably don't remember or understand. If they do, it's not the first thing that comes to either. So the difference is interesting, maybe funny, maybe a good topic for conversation. That's a single word. We can expand that sort of comparison to broader stuff. What happens when it's not funny or interesting? When something is fine in one culture but brings bad memories to another culture? What about across time? Even within a singular culture, for how long does a metaphor hold? What happens if someone learns english from old movies and try to use those metaphors today? Will all of them hold the same meaning or some of them be offensive nowadays? I certainly notice some difference between how americans and british use of figures of speech. That should be obvious for native english speakers of either of those countries, much more than it is to me. Imagine those differences amplified by a lot, and the gap that this could potentially cause.

smogcutter 2y ago
Naively, doesn’t it seem likely that pancakes and panquecas are unrelated “false friends”? Pancakes are “cakes” made in a pan. It’s not a Latin-derived word, so the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own. The simpler explanation is that pan means bread, -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes, and the foods are so different because the words are unrelated coincidental soundalikes.
- alganet 2y ago
  The brazillian probably borrowed from the american. I don't know how. We don't have anything similar to american pancakes in our culture. There is no such thing. So, if anyone needs to say "pancake" in brazil, refering to american pancakes, they'll use the term "panqueca". Movies do this, Google Translate does it and most bi-lingual en-us+pt-BR people will recognize this. There's a well-estabilished linguistic relation between the two, despite any etymological root differences and despite the dishes being so different. Our word for cake is "bolo", and our word for pan is "panela", but "panela" means one specific kind of pan here. Thin pans (like the sort of pan you'd use to cook an egg) are often called "frigideiras" (there's a relation to frying there somewhere, not fridge). I guess "bolo de frigideira" just didn't made any sense to whomever popularized the translation over here (it really sounds weird, I totally understand why).
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own Which happens constantly. > -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes Queques does. > The simpler explanation I think them coming from the same word is simpler.
Livanskoy 2y ago
Paying too much attention to words and meanings is one of the most unhealthy things in today's society. It erodes culture, obscures what we are as humans. The sooner we'll overcome this situation, the better.
- kjhughes 2y ago
  Culture enriches the nuance of words' meanings, and nuanced language facilitates our ability to relate to one another, thereby improving culture, society, and "what we are as humans." Any obsession can be unhealthy, but if the worst problem of society ever comes to be too much attention to words and meanings, I think we'll be ok.
  - Livanskoy 2y ago
    I agree with everything you said. My point was that today's culture is unhealthily obsessed with words and meanings, to the point of destroying any nuance or understanding that might have been. I see it as one of the main problems of today's society, that will have long lasting consequences. People can't express themselves freely, can't discuss many complicated topics without fear of being torn up by a crowd. This is not a situation that promotes understanding, reflection or leads to civilized solutions; this is a boiling pressure cooker with blocked safety valve. Today's people, in my experience, more often than not default to using the inverted Hanlon's razor in their judgement — trying to find enemies everywhere, instead of taking it easy and accepting human imperfection. This is not something new of course, but today's technology and lifestyle accelerates this to levels where any genuine dialogue between people of different world views is highly unlikely. In today's society people are more likely to just claim someone they disagree with as an enemy, rather than try to understand why they're using the words they don't like. In my opinion this... psychosis will not end well, and I could only hope that we'll take that hit and be better for it in a long run.
    - alganet 2y ago
      I think you're getting somewhere here. If people were able to express themselves without being judged as, for example, psychotic, then the world would be a better place. It makes a lot of sense.

smogcutter 2y ago

Naively, doesn’t it seem likely that pancakes and panquecas are unrelated “false friends”? Pancakes are “cakes” made in a pan. It’s not a Latin-derived word, so the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own. The simpler explanation is that pan means bread, -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes, and the foods are so different because the words are unrelated coincidental soundalikes.

alganet 2y ago
The brazillian probably borrowed from the american. I don't know how. We don't have anything similar to american pancakes in our culture. There is no such thing. So, if anyone needs to say "pancake" in brazil, refering to american pancakes, they'll use the term "panqueca". Movies do this, Google Translate does it and most bi-lingual en-us+pt-BR people will recognize this. There's a well-estabilished linguistic relation between the two, despite any etymological root differences and despite the dishes being so different. Our word for cake is "bolo", and our word for pan is "panela", but "panela" means one specific kind of pan here. Thin pans (like the sort of pan you'd use to cook an egg) are often called "frigideiras" (there's a relation to frying there somewhere, not fridge). I guess "bolo de frigideira" just didn't made any sense to whomever popularized the translation over here (it really sounds weird, I totally understand why).
Dylan16807 2y ago
> the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own Which happens constantly. > -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes Queques does. > The simpler explanation I think them coming from the same word is simpler.

Livanskoy 2y ago

Paying too much attention to words and meanings is one of the most unhealthy things in today's society. It erodes culture, obscures what we are as humans. The sooner we'll overcome this situation, the better.

kjhughes 2y ago
Culture enriches the nuance of words' meanings, and nuanced language facilitates our ability to relate to one another, thereby improving culture, society, and "what we are as humans." Any obsession can be unhealthy, but if the worst problem of society ever comes to be too much attention to words and meanings, I think we'll be ok.
- Livanskoy 2y ago
  I agree with everything you said. My point was that today's culture is unhealthily obsessed with words and meanings, to the point of destroying any nuance or understanding that might have been. I see it as one of the main problems of today's society, that will have long lasting consequences. People can't express themselves freely, can't discuss many complicated topics without fear of being torn up by a crowd. This is not a situation that promotes understanding, reflection or leads to civilized solutions; this is a boiling pressure cooker with blocked safety valve. Today's people, in my experience, more often than not default to using the inverted Hanlon's razor in their judgement — trying to find enemies everywhere, instead of taking it easy and accepting human imperfection. This is not something new of course, but today's technology and lifestyle accelerates this to levels where any genuine dialogue between people of different world views is highly unlikely. In today's society people are more likely to just claim someone they disagree with as an enemy, rather than try to understand why they're using the words they don't like. In my opinion this... psychosis will not end well, and I could only hope that we'll take that hit and be better for it in a long run.
  - alganet 2y ago
    I think you're getting somewhere here. If people were able to express themselves without being judged as, for example, psychotic, then the world would be a better place. It makes a lot of sense.