8 ms·
U.S. Govt pushes Nvidia and Apple to use Intel's foundries
- oldpersonintx 2y ago[dead]
- jmclnx 2y agoTechnically is that even possible ? (I know nothing about chip manf) I can see the US can probably force Apple to do that. Nvidia may be a tough sell unless the US puts an embargo on Nvidia. We know that won't happen.
- colmmacc 2y agoI'm skeptical that the US government would go so far, but why the difference between Apple and Nvidia? You can walk between their headquarters in California, and they are both incorporated in Delaware.
- jmclnx 2y agoApple is a US Based Company. Isn't Nvidia based in the UK ? Plus with the AI push, many US companies will be against forcing a change to Nvidia's status. edit: OK, maybe I got arm and Nvidia mixed up :)
- novia 2y agoI read the book Chip War. The US Government has been the chip industry's faithful customer. They are also allowed to step in when they have national security concerns. The pandemic chip shortage brought our reliance on overseas producers into sharp focus. They're trying to patch that now. TSMC is top class though, so it's difficult to convince people to use anything else.
- amy-petrik-214 2y agonational security, exactly. if intel makes everr'one's chips like the old days then intel, that old friend the US government helped shield from bankruptcy... .. maybe intel can slip in a little extra circuit here or there, won't be used for anything NORMALLY but maybe if things got bad maybe hypothetically the NSA could have a teensy little backdoor added on. conversely the assumption is this is what already occurs in chinese chips, which makes the US govt want even harder to centralize all chip making under the NSA's home turf
- caust1c 2y agoIt seems feasible technically. The machines and process is just about effectively the same regardless of the chip manufacturer, since they all use the same ASML EUV technology to produce the wafers. From a regulation perspective though, it's sus from my point of view but definitely not unheard of in other industries of course. Reading the article, it sounds like the government agent is pressuring the shareholders of those firms to in turn pressure nVidia and Apple to use those fabs. And it reads like the official didn't mention Intel by name, so par for the course for avoiding scrutiny using the "invisible hand" (/s) of the market.
- re-thc 2y ago> since they all use the same ASML EUV technology to produce the wafers If only that's all there is to it. This is sort of the media's simplified view for the general public. And well what some people want to talk about. There are lots of vendors involved with a lot of unique technologies in the mix. If it was so simple everyone would just buy these machines and copy it. > The machines and process is just about effectively the same It's clearly different. Apple experienced it first hand many times. Same as Qualcomm. Try ask TSMC and Samsung to manufacture the same design over roughly the same generation and there have been vastly different results.
- gpm 2y ago> Technically is that even possible ? (I know nothing about chip manf) The article basically answers this question > However, Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang said during the Goldman Sachs conference that the GPU maker could shift its fab if needed. “In the event that we have to shift from one fab to another, we have the ability to do it. We won’t be able to get the same level of performance or cost, but we will be able to provide the supply.”
- 39896880 2y agoIsn’t TSMC building in the US?
- janice1999 2y agoThey already have a fab in Arizona. https://www.anandtech.com/show/18682/tsmc-unveils-major-us-fab-expansion-plans-3nm-and-40-billion https://www.anandtech.com/show/18682/tsmc-unveils-major-us-f...
- dylan604 2y agoIt would still be a foreign owned company. Also, if it is in the US, the staffing problem would be the same
- 39896880 2y agoIf Taiwan is invaded, wouldn’t the Taiwanese nationalists come to the US? I thought that was the plan.
- dylan604 2y agoYou're assuming that the invading forces would allow people to leave. First thing invading forces do is take over airports, and I would assume blockade the ports in this case as well. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoGood luck with that. I've been a pretty vocal Apple critic for most of my life, but after seeing how much more energy efficient my work MacBook (i.e. Arm) was, I ended up getting one for myself (I just hold my nose about the window manager and live in the terminal instead). Intel's lack of drive to innovate comes through in consequential dimensions like battery life. No amount of "made in USA" stickers is going to address that.
- _mlbt 2y agoRegarding macOS window management, have you tried Rectangle? It’s free and open source with a pro version if you want to support the developer… https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoI use rectangle, but the critical missing feature is the ability to move focus directionally. Why bother tile your windows if you can't have a hotkey that moves focus up, left, down, or right? Lacking such a hotkey, I now must keep track of them temporally (Cmd + tab + tab + tab to go to the one I used three times ago) which is a really clumsy way to think about something that supposed to be analogous to objects in a 2D space. This isn't Rectangle's fault, my impression is that the public window management API is just not powerful enough. Amethyst is the closest thing I've found on MacOS to the alignment of placement & focus management that I'm after (which doesn't require disabling system integrity protection) but I'd much rather think in terms of directions than monads. So I have to chose between the kind of UI sanity that you find in i3/sway and the kind of battery life that you find on an ARM MacBook, and I blame Intel.
- re-thc 2y ago> Intel's lack of drive to innovate Intel is behind yes, but they're not unwilling to innovate. Fab delays at one point held up a lot of newer designs and they had to backport it and/or use TSMC.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
- FrankWilhoit 2y agoWhich foundries are those? The ones that Intel are not going to finish because they can't be staffed? (Cover story: lack of demand). The ones for whose cost Intel received up-front, no-strings cash subsidies from U. S. taxpayers?
- okr 2y agoOr from german taxpayers.
- melling 2y agoIntel hasn’t received any US money yet. TSMC will also receive several billion in subsidies. The problem the government is trying to address is 90% of the world’s most sophisticated chips being made in Taiwan, a potential war zone. It’s probably important for Intel’s fab to get a major customer without offending TSMC. The US government pressure helps Intel and doesn’t cost anyone any money. Intel’s price has been under a lot of pressure because of the fab investments.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago> up-front, no-strings cash Intel has to build the foundries before they get the money. They haven't received any cash yet.
- FrankWilhoit 2y agoThis must be clarified -- I was talking about the CHIPS Act money, not the new money mentioned in the linked article. Has the CHIPS Act money not been disbursed yet?
- melling 2y agoNo, I answered you an hour ago. Where are you getting your information?
- FrankWilhoit 2y agoCustomarily any sort of "stimulus" is disbursed immediately so that the multiplier effects can begin to be felt. Also, money went to the local high school where one of the fabs is being built, for some kind of "partnership". So I assumed that the money had been disbursed. If it has not, then I need to look up what the milestones are, because Intel keep fuzzing the schedule and the strategy for the in-progress fab up the road from me. Regardless, there is no way for them to staff it; it would have all had to be on H1-B and O1-A, but now no one will come even for those, as they see that they will be lynched for eating dogs.
- datavirtue 2y agoThis is all shaping up to look very ugly, on numerous levels. In any case, we should have fun day trading Intel on the headlines.
- throwaway5752 2y agoThere is nothing wrong here. Any country would like to have the jobs, and beyond that the advanced semiconductor supply chain has a long lead time to replicate and get skilled workforce trained at scale. This is exactly what the Sec. of Commerce should be doing, and the full title of the article,"U.S. Govt pushes Nvidia and Apple to use Intel's foundries — Department of Commerce Secretary Raimondo makes appeal for US-based chip production", gives a better picture of the dynamic here. The government is lobbying for more domestic semiconductor production, not compelling it. When China invades Taiwan it will be too late to have taken this step. See https://media.defense.gov/2023/Apr/24/2003205865/-1/-1/1/07-AMONSON%20%26%20EGLI_FEATURE%20IWD.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2023/Apr/24/2003205865/-1/-1/1/07-..., and https://global.upenn.edu/perryworldhouse/news/japans-response-chinese-invasion-taiwan-four-year-outlook https://global.upenn.edu/perryworldhouse/news/japans-respons..., et al. Advanced munitions require this capability. Xi is 71 years old now and has promised reunification, this conflict is inevitable and imminent. The domestic (US) TSMC fabs are also a good step.
- aswanson 2y agoExactly. The pandemic has brought to light the flaws in lassiez faire libertarian economic philosophy. The US has hostile opposition and has to take steps to keep itself safe from adversarial actors. We dont live in an ideal world and we have to act accordingly, not how we want it to be.
- talldayo 2y agoThe whole "let the market settle on a smartest solution" idea works great, until your highest-margin exports start getting manufactured abroad in a country without labor regulation. First cars, then software, and now smartphones. By 2045, America will be the manufacturer of Absolutely Nothing and we'll be incredibly proud of what our businesses accomplished.
- aswanson 2y agoYup. We wont make anything but valuation spreadsheets for private equity to analyze by then. Legacy of Jack Welch and simple-mindedness of shareholder value uber alles.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mensetmanusman 2y agoThe push can come from tariffs due to ~$50B trade deficit with Taiwan and ~$400B deficit with China.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoAs long as you recognize that a Chinese tariff would be a massively inflationary and regressive tax on American consumers. A Chinese tariff is perhaps the right long term move, but in the short term it will cause a lot of pain to Americans who are struggling with a cost of living crisis as it is.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIf tariffs simply fix the price difference between the cost of materials-dumping that is happening in certain industries where China has over-invested to help properly balance the global economy, it will not be massively inflationary; it’s just a defensive move against attacks on western manufacturing centers.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoIOW, a price increase, aka inflation.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIf a widget costs $10, and a competitor comes in who is subsidized by the largest population in the world and then sells a competing widget for $1, this will seem like a great deal in the short term for the population. (Until they stop manufacturing widgets because they can’t sell below cost.) Adding $9 in tariffs to the $1 may seem like inflation, but it’s something slightly different.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoAs I said originally, that might be good in the long term, but in the short term that's 900% inflation.
- peacechance 2y ago[flagged]
- moneydang 2y ago[flagged]