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Have you ever seen soldering this close? [video]
- Ecco 2y agoActually I have, and you can too! All you need is a stereo microscope - even a cheap, sub-$100 will do :) Now that being said, I would have never been able to record such a high quality video! The depth of field in particular is really amazing :)
- stonethrowaway 2y agoLink to decent soldering scopes? Looking for one since I need to solder/desolder ICs. Been using T15 or whatever tips, they are great because of how varied they are.
- armadsen 2y agoI’ve owned this one for about 10 years and have never felt limited by it: https://a.co/d/c3z7JMf https://a.co/d/c3z7JMf
- gmiller123456 2y agoI've had that same one for a long time, and am pretty happy with it. But I would recommend shopping around and watching some reviews. Things may have changed. One thing to consider is the light. I was never happy with the light on this scope, and instead use a different flexible desk lamp. Most of the ones mounted to the scope have pretty short stems, and can't be positioned to shine from the front, or very low to the side.
- SAI_Peregrinus 2y agoI've got the SM-4 7-45x, with LED ring light, 0.7x Barlow, rubber eye cups, and double-arm boom stand. Basically this[1] with some extra accessories. Works excellently, the newer design allows mounting the ring light easily (there's a grove it sits in). [1] https://amscope.com/products/c-sm-4ntp-64s?variant=41420594610351 https://amscope.com/products/c-sm-4ntp-64s?variant=414205946...
- xondono 2y agoThe goto for most people is getting an AmScope on your budget range. There are other options, but they tend to be less budget friendly, more targeted to professionals than DIYers.
- jdietrich 2y agoPractically all hobbyists and phone repairers use the same style of generic stereo zoom microscope, loosely based on the Meiji EMZ-5. AmScope will sell you one starting at around $400, or you can buy direct from China if you want to save a few bucks. Less expensive models with fixed magnification are available, but I can't recommend them. https://amscope.com/collections/stereo-microscopes-zoom-power https://amscope.com/collections/stereo-microscopes-zoom-powe... https://eakinsmicscopestore.aliexpress.com/store/3200040/pages/all-items.html https://eakinsmicscopestore.aliexpress.com/store/3200040/pag... With 10x eyepieces and a 0.5x auxiliary objective, these scopes provide a very useful range of 3.5x-22.5x magnification and a comfortable working distance. At the minimum 3.5x magnification, the standard widefield 10x eyepieces give a field of view of about 50mm. They are available in various bundles with a wide variety of stands and accessories; the essential accessories are a ring light and a 0.5x Barlow lens. I would recommend the biggest, heaviest boom stand you can reasonably fit on your desk, because any instability in the stand will be greatly magnified in your vision. The key to using these microscopes successfully is to adjust the parfocal, which will allow you to adjust the zoom without having to refocus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R00KyVGRMpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R00KyVGRMpc The preferred industrial option is the Vision Engineering Mantis, which uses very clever projection technology to provide a stereoscopic image without eyepieces. The ergonomics are dramatically better than a conventional stereo microscope, but you'll be lucky to find a used model on eBay for less than $1000. A big investment for a hobbyist, but worth every penny if you've got back or neck problems. https://www.visioneng.com/products/eyepiece-less-stereo-microscopes/mantis/ https://www.visioneng.com/products/eyepiece-less-stereo-micr...
- stonethrowaway 2y agoSolid post.
- alhirzel 2y agoReally cool camera and very nice set of soldering "demos", including without flux.
- najork 2y agoIt's super cool how they generated the 3D model on the fly, I'd love to spend some time playing with the microscope they used in the video.
- komali2 2y agoI followed the link in the description and it brought me to the microscope product page. I clicked "price" and it had a page that told me to enter my business email for a quote lol.
- najork 2y agoYou know it’s expensive when they won’t even tell you the price. Reddit says around $70k: https://www.reddit.com/r/microscopy/comments/nqo4qy/keyence_vhx7000/ https://www.reddit.com/r/microscopy/comments/nqo4qy/keyence_...
- gaze 2y agoWhatever you do, DO NOT enter your email and absolutely do not give them your phone number. Keyence famously will not leave you alone. They’re very aggressive.
- crispyambulance 2y agoYeah, I confirm! They're infamous for that!
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- _benj 2y agoThat is really cool! I haven't tried hot plates because I didn't really have faith that solder would actually pull the component down and align it. I think this video might have improved that faith :-)
- adamrmcd 2y agoUsing a hotplate is like driving with one eye closed. Sure you’ll get there, but your accuracy will suffer! Though I’ve had many a SOICs magically realign on the hot plate — they were pretty forgiving — it’s not worth it to run without proper temperature profiling, even if it’s from a hacked toaster oven :)
- oasisaimlessly 2y agoTo counter the sibbling comment: I've assembled many dozens of boards on a hotplate with no complaints. Watching them reflow with a stereo microscope (AmScope SM4) over the hot plate is fun. I've never worried about temperature profiles; I've just started it from cold on the maximum setting and turned it off when all the solder has melted. * The hot plate I used was the "Presto 07211 Liddle Griddle", which worked well. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00006IUWL https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00006IUWL
- femto 2y agoA nice video, though it missed one of the most interesting aspects of BGA packages: their ability to self-centre during soldering. If the misalignment is less extreme than in the video, surface tension will pull the BGA package into alignment. Here is an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz7ltWBDm7U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz7ltWBDm7U Notice how in the second part of the video, once the solder has melted, the body of the BGA moves so it is correctly centred over the PCB pads. This is happening by itself, without an external influence pushing the chip into position.
- brianpan 2y agoSurface tension for the win. In the extreme misalignment example they also did not use flux so I guess they were purposefully showing what NOT soldered looks like. They did show how the solder flows in the "too much solder paste" example.
- kayfox 2y agoThis is true for most surface mount packages, the surface tension of the solder will usually center the parts in their pads during reflow.
- xondono 2y agoThis. In my experience QFN-like packages self center better than comparable BGAs, it’s just that BGAs in general are big so they are easy to line up. Small BGAs can be hell to hand solder.
- aidenn0 2y agoI find SOICs to be by far the most forgiving; off by anything less than half the pitch and it tends to jump into place.
- dragontamer 2y agoIn fact, the force of self centering is more a problem for small 0402 parts!!!! The force is so strong, it can 'Tombstone' the piece during reflow. This is partially why 0402 is used rather than the more electrically convenient 0204. It's easier to tombstone on the long edge. ------- Also, if you don't care about tombstoning but need the better parasitics of a 0204 capacitor or the better heat capacities of a 0204 resistor, try them out!!
- londons_explore 2y agoAnyone here know why solder paste isn't made of finer particles? What are the tradeoffs on particle size?
- Kirby64 2y agoThey make it in a variety of particle sizes. For certain pitch devices (usually under 0.4mm) you need to switch to finer particle sizes (Type 5 typically is used for the small stuff). See: https://fctsolder.com/solder-paste-type-3-vs-type-4-vs-type-5/ https://fctsolder.com/solder-paste-type-3-vs-type-4-vs-type-...
- CarVac 2y agoThe finer the solder particles, the greater the ratio of surface oxide to actual solder. Oxidized solder consumes some of the flux's reducing effect.
- taneq 2y agoI've heard this 'oxide layer' argument before (usually in regards to recycling swarf) and I don't buy it. Typically these oxide layers are measured in nanometers, something a few hundred microns across isn't going to lose an appreciable amount from a tens-of-nanometers-thick layer.
- bloggie 2y agoThere are a few reasons. Smaller ball size means more surface area. When the paste flows, the surface tension of the solder makes it cling to the part and pad, and moves the part to align with the pad. With more surface area, you can start to get solder that clings to itself, making solder balls outside of the pad, called balling. This wastes solder and makes conductive components that are effectively contamination, they now have to be cleaned off, you can't let them remain to roll around and potentially make a short. I had issues with smaller balls clinging to stencils; i think the price is also higher. I think there is a rule of thumb for choosing solder ball size, and it was something along the line of 5-8 balls should fit in the width of the smallest solder aperture. This will give good performance according to the component size without too much balling or other flow issues.
- zaps 2y agoI sure haven’t
- ashconnor 2y agoApplying paste when you have a stencil is easy but I recently tried fixing the FPC connector on a Nintendo Switch and hand-applying solder paste is messier than hand soldering.
- anymouse123456 2y agoYes! It's ridiculously difficult to hand-apply solder paste without a stencil. We use a pointy dental tool for larger pads and acupuncture needles for the teeny-tiny's. I'd love to learn about better ways though, anyone else got tips for applying solder paste before a repair gets reflowed?
- jamesy0ung 2y agoDupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41545215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41545215
- pitaj 2y agoI was hooking to see an example of a cold soldier joint. (Applying soldier directly from the iron without heating the pin)
- anymouse123456 2y agoYeah - me too! FWIW, We got a training class from a grumpy guru a couple years ago, and "cold joint" was his most despised phrase. He insisted we call them "dry joints," because that's what they actually were. Now, whenever I hear (or read, or say) the terrible phrase, I can't help but think of the old guy, "No! it's dry!"
- RachelM71948937 2y ago[dead]
- AdieuToLogic 2y agoYes.
- mjmdavis 2y agoThe microscope is from Keyence. An entry level model I believe. I have access to one with 3 lenses on an automated turret. They’re excellent for inspection and make for a ton of fun when you have anything small and interesting to look at. They don’t have an API which is a big miss from my perspective. Every inspection requires a human operator to drive the thing.
- weinzierl 2y agoHow much does this thing cost? What ballpark are talking about?
- jpasmore 2y agoThis is, by far, the best video on soldering I have ever seen. Soldering by hand is a dying art...My dad had a car radio repair shop - when radios were repairable (Delco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delco_Electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delco_Electronics) - taught me how...like riding a bicycle, you never forget...
- dthakur 2y agoI respectfully disagree, and say that hand soldering is not a dying art. If you’re working on boards on the regular you probably have a soldering iron and use it often.
- Taniwha 2y agoYeah I agree, I solder parts like those in the video by hand (even occasionally BGAs with hot air)
- elihu 2y agoYeah, hand-soldering as the means of mass production of consumer electronics devices has (mostly) died out, but the people who actually build and test things, or the people who fix consumer electronics devices, still usually do a lot of soldering. It's also a necessary skill in a lot of technical hobbies. Modular synthesis by means of DIY modules, the whole mechanical keyboard thing, electric guitar maintenance...
- thebigman433 2y agoId definitely disagree about hand soldering being a dying art! There are lots of other great techniques, but hand soldering is still vital to developing hardware. Any hardware company worth it's salt has at least a couple rework technicians that are absolute wizards with soldering. Also stuff like reflow solder is/can still be done by hand! Its a common thing to do if you need to touch up or modify a PCB and dont want to reflow the whole thing/damage any components
- weinzierl 2y agoSoldering by hand is a dying art... I'm not sure. Back in the day we avoided SMD like the plague and it had a reputation of being unapproachable. THT parts were highly sought after and I would even say that a good deal of the success of AVR was because they offered THT versions of their µs long after most others had stopped. Some of us even engaged in the uphill battle of lead-free soldering only to be disillusioned. We thought hand soldering will die with THT but it didn't. I see a young generation that has mostly overcome these hurdles. With their young steady hands, sharp eyes, high-lead solder, small temperature controlled irons and other modern equipment they just go about. I envy them.
- horacemorace 2y agoSure! Us olds routinely use microscopes. New things sure are small and you can’t solder it if you can’t see it.
- anymouse123456 2y agoI'm also shocked at how seeing hand-shake up close (via a microscope) tends to diminish the amplitude. I'm old, and drink too much coffee most days, but I can hand-solder down to 0402 with my microscope. Best money I ever spent was a cheap, stereo soldering microscope.
- TechSquidTV 2y agoWatching how forgiving solder can be, and me still being bad at it is blowing my mind right now.
- aulin 2y agocould it be that you are using lead-free solder? that's almost impossible to use without precise temperature control and it's the most common source of annoyance in recent years with hobby soldering
- RulerOf 2y agoI had that problem for an embarrassing number of years because I didn't know what flux was. Today, I won't even plug in the iron if I can't find my flux first.
- progbits 2y agoI respectfully disagree. I'm a mediocre hobbyist at best, I have cheap gear and use exclusively lead free solder/solderpaste without problems. The trick is to just use a lot of flux. I have a flux pen for hand soldering, and solderpaste usually has enough flux in it.
- anymouse123456 2y agoThe hate for lead-free is wild. Hey kids - don't listen to the old geezers (though I'm one too). Get lead-free and figure it out. It's really just about getting in reps, and caring about the results. In my personal experience, leaded is maybe 5% easier. If you're doing hobby level work, it is definitely not worth having lead around getting into and onto your other stuff and possibly being licked by kids or pets or whatever, and turning your projects into hazmat.
- anymouse123456 2y agoMoar flux. Really. Just add more flux than you think it could possibly need. The biggest failure mode I've seen with solder of all kinds is not enough flux. This Amtech no-clean is really gooey[0], but pretty useful for rework. This Kester water-soluble is incredible, but needs to be washed[1]. If you need to hand-clean PCBs, a small photography developing tub and a sonicare (or similar) toothbrush is a game changer. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Y7N6QHF https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Y7N6QHF [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DEDB5CM https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DEDB5CM
- dlevine 2y agoI have watched way too much Steztix Fix on YouTube - it’s kind of addicting to watch people fix things). On that channel,he manages to fix all sorts of things with commodity tools, including a cheap microscope, hot air rework station, and soldering iron. He isn’t doing any BGA soldering, but there are YouTubers who reball BGAs (that looks frustrating).
- tymscar 2y agoI love that channel. If you like that look up MyMateVince too and JoeyDoesTech. Super good.
- iamflimflam1 2y agoCan also recommend stezstixfix - lots of humour and he’s not massively technical so it’s in to hear his thought process as he puzzles out the problem.
- ruph123 2y agoThat microscope is amazing. Commenters debate whether it costs 30k or more around 100k so it is further out of reach for most hobbyist. A few years ago I had quite a lot of fun with one of those cheap $30 wireless USB microscopes with up to 1000x magnification that connects to some app. My family and I always came up with new ideas about what we should look at next. Incredible fun. Unfortunately it broke down rather quickly. But it opened up the world much more than traditional backlight microscopes I am used to. They are basically “just” specialized cameras with bright flash lights. I wonder if prices have come down a bit and if there are good options out there for such a portable microscope that doesn’t break so quickly. Better quality and magnification in the $200 range?
- lnsru 2y agoI am using 1500€ Amscope for soldering tasks. It does not have such amazing magnification. Such magnification is also not needed for daily work. But it replaced 10k Olympus device from a decade ago. Optical devices got radically cheaper in last 20 years. SMD rework is not possible without them. Such amazing scope is built in into 70k professional SMD rework station I use sometimes for complex repairs. Replacing RAM and processor chips is easy, but slow. Honestly I don’t think, that the scope in video is extraordinary expensive. Definitively cheaper than my old Olympus gear.
- jve 2y agoI bought this microscope that has HDMI port for connecting monitor. Cost me little over 100€. Has no lag. Quality worse than what in video but better than some I see on youtube that also lags. This microscope is not perfect but capable to do smd soldering. https://a.aliexpress.com/_EIRqaY9 https://a.aliexpress.com/_EIRqaY9
- crispyambulance 2y agoI believe that's a Keyence microscope, and yes, way outside the scope of a hobbyist! They have a range of microscopes for this kind of thing. Some are also able to perform accurate dimensional measurements (sort of like the old optical comparators machinists used to use but far better). They're typically used for incoming inspection in manufacturing processes.
- mecHacker 2y agoI'm wondering how common is damage to soldering connections in extreme temperatures and/or vibrations? Fascinating video btw!
- spiritplumber 2y agoI have to do 0402 by hand to fix some old stuff this week. it's going.... let's just say that it's going
- liendolucas 2y agoJust curious as I'm not into electronics but what is the name of the device where you put the PCB to be heated up? Is it expensive? What are the basic tools to perform full soldering of all components in a PCB? Seems like today you can buy all these tiny resistors, capacitors, chips, etc and pretty much do your own boards at home, right? Any suggestions on all these basic tools to have a relatively decent but not expensive lab setup?
- guthriej 2y agoReflow oven
- foldr 2y agoIt's quite feasible to do reflow soldering by applying solder paste with a stencil and then using a cheap toaster oven. However, the lack of a precisely controlled temperature profile makes it less repeatable and reliable than the industrial process. I've done it successfully a few times but generally had to touch up one or two components with a hot air station or soldering iron. Here's a SparkFun blog post: https://www.sparkfun.com/news/3319 https://www.sparkfun.com/news/3319
- nirava 2y ago- simple boards can be made by first transferring your PCB design to a copper-plated board using toner transfer or UV exposure, then etching the rest of the copper away using an etchant solution (if you're willing; takes some elbow grease and dangerous chemicals). Or you can get a cheap fab-house to manufacture and ship you something (like 7-14 days, a few tens of bucks per batch) - simple boards you can probably solder with a cheapo (~50-100$) soldering system, or a solder-paste+hot air machine setup - components you can get for very cheap from LCSC, aliexpress or at okay prices but good reliability from digikey, mouser etc. You'll also need stuff like multimeter, ocsilloscope, logic analyzers, etc for debugging your boards but you'll know when you need them, and there are cheap-enough options available up to the point when you start doing advanced stuff and you know what you need.
- pjc50 2y ago> Seems like today you can buy all these tiny resistors, capacitors, chips, etc and pretty much do your own boards at home, right? The "starter kit" I would suggest is: - temperature controlled soldering iron. This is worth the premium over "dumb" irons, especially for leadfree solder. People have different opinions about brands, but try Hakko or Weller. Start with a small chisel tip - solder paste is a more advanced substance, and is perishable and should be kept in the fridge. Stick to a reel of thin solder to get started - flux pen is surprisingly useful - resistors are cheap enough that you can just buy all of them: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001321720241.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001321720241.html - ICs you should stick to Digikey or other local supplier and NOT aliexpress - PCBs: services like JLPCB will make these and ship them to you - desk lamp. Possibly one with a magnifier. - some people will get serious about fume extraction; personally I quite like the smell of flux and just leave a window open. Be careful with airflow in case you blow away smaller components - solder braid: annoying, doesn't work well. Try a solder sucker - advanced but extremely useful tool: solder tweezers - hot air gun and/or oven: again a more advanced tool, but critical for certain parts. Avoid those parts.
- taneq 2y agoNot usually but just today I made a foray into surface mount soldering to mount a 2mm^2 8-pin package onto a breakout board. I'd planned to manually cut a breakout board but underestimated just how damn small it would be. Luckily a friend with a laser engraver volunteered to help and we managed to zap some breakout boards. I manually added paste (after a few false starts I used a needle like a fountain pen to dip into a blob of paste and dab it onto the traces) and reflowed it in a toaster oven. :D Solder paste under the microscope: https://i.imgur.com/IiTKmrS.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/IiTKmrS.jpeg Closeup of reflowed solder, maybe a bit janky but it went better than expected: https://i.imgur.com/9wbV8nc.png https://i.imgur.com/9wbV8nc.png Finished test board hooked up and working: https://i.imgur.com/xZduEUt.png https://i.imgur.com/xZduEUt.png
- paulsutter 2y agoIf you find this awesome, you should work on manufacturing. there are lots of great manufacturing technology startups happening right now
- mecHacker 2y agocould you elaborate on that. I'd love to explore this area!
- ThePhysicist 2y agoReminds me of my physics PhD, where I would solder SMA microwave connectors to PCBs under the microscope. It was really satisfying to apply the solder, put the connector and watch it bond on the hot plate. Bonding chips was similarly satisfying and had to be done with even larger magnification.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- zeckalpha 2y agoYes, and I've seen closer even on YouTube recently. https://youtu.be/RuVS7MsQk4Y?si=diQB07jBvv5rK8lZ https://youtu.be/RuVS7MsQk4Y?si=diQB07jBvv5rK8lZ The isometric view camera is neat though!
- jve 2y agoCan someone list here high quality solder one can buy in aliexpress that is easy to work with? (primarily) Lead based. Asking as a hobbyist for soldering wires (think arduino) and sometimes pcb smd components. After a while when learning I realized that to solder, flux and solder makes a big difference... low quality solder and flux is just miserable.
- scrumper 2y ago"High quality" and "can buy on aliexpress" huh. I'd drop the latter requirement. Kester rosin core is available everywhere including Amazon and is excellent quality. 60/40 works nicely, #44 too.
- metadat 2y agoWhat kind of heating element did the author use? I have some heat guns but it's pretty easy to burn the PCB when attempting a reflow or other operation.