7 ms·

Why use metaphors in conflicts? Because understanding is remembering in disguise (2009)

76 points by rzk 2y ago

cheschire 2y ago
I use metaphors far too frequently in spoken conversations, and I have learned that it’s often more effective to cut bait (there’s one!) than to try to transition to a new metaphor mid stream of consciousness. So they are useful, but I’ve noticed weakness in using them as well.
- quietbritishjim 2y ago
  > more effective to cut bait (there’s one!) I have no idea what you mean by this, I can't even figure out roughly what you mean from context, so I guess that's a weakness of them for a start.
  - onethought 2y ago
    Sometimes a metaphor doesn’t make sense so you might abandon it for another rather than trying to stretch it. Sometimes when fishing you catch something your rod or skill level is not capable of reeling in. So you are better to cut the line/bait rather than lose your whole rod.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      That's funny, I'd always interpreted it as you can either: - fish, or - cut bait (slice baitfish into bait-sized pieces) Of course, the latter activity is not fishing, merely fishing-adjacent.
      - onethought 2y ago
        Two distinct expressions that happen to share words. Is how I thought of it. Certainly in the context of the OP it seems he is not presenting an either or but a change course.
    - giardini 2y ago
      I was enlightened to read your interpretation, which Wikipedia indeed lists as a "more modern, alternative interpretation". The prevailing interpretation is a directive to make a decision rather than dally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    "Cut bait" isn't really a metaphor by this time; it's more an idiom that is based on a metaphor. It comes from "fish or cut bait", that is, either do one thing or the other. It means to stop being indecisive, to come to the point.
    - hunter2_ 2y ago
      Seems analogous to "get off the pot" although glossing over the alternative is less common for this one.
- throwbadubadu 2y ago
  Yes.. I agree to the example and reasoning in the article, but on the other hand metaphors can simplify things too much, and even tell lies. E.g. politicians using them is the prime example. Thus, not convinced...
  - k__ 2y ago
    Also, their meaning gets lost over time. That's why it's not recommended to use them in prose. But they get buried (!) anyway.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
intended 2y ago
Having been terrible at communication (and continuing to be so), metaphors and analogies really are excellent tools. The caveats first: Like with all communication, they should be understood by the audience, not offensive, not distracting. A good analogy is like being able to share a scaled model with someone. It invites them to play with concepts and deduce things you haven’t conveyed yet. That said, that level of fidelity is usually the result of thinking about a subject for a while, and handling the fall out of bad analogies for a while. I try and remember the moments my mental image changes. Describing the inciting event, or the change that happened in your mental image, should lead to figuring out a good analogy. At the very least, you will have a story to share, which is what human brains are very good at grasping, and using as models.
- e1gen-v 2y ago
  I like how you used an analogy of a scale model to explain your understanding of why analogies are useful in communication
- detourdog 2y ago
  Metaphors or analogies not exactly fitting the pattern of facts under discussion is not a problem. It provides a neutral framework to compare and contrast. How a metaphor or analogy breaks down under scrutiny refines the thought and provides a new opportunity for metaphors or analogies.
gcanyon 2y ago
That's an interesting article, and I don't necessarily disagree with the thesis, but the article certainly doesn't argue well in support of its premise. It simply states it as fact, citing a book that apparently actually makes the case, but without citing anything near enough of it to actually make the case.
wirthjason 2y ago
How could someone write a post like this and leave off the great book “Metaphors We Live By” by Lakoff and Johnson? Is particularly found the part about how metaphors “hide and highlight” information. In other words the metaphor we use necessitates how we think. We often frame arguments using the metaphor of war and that frames how we think. The other party is an enemy that must be defeated, its bloody, and there is a loser. However we could frame it as a dance, in which case they are a partner, and for the outcome to succeed they must move together in harmony. Lakoff has written other fascinating books like how metaphors are used in politics as well as math (“Where Mathematics Comes From”).
- kjhughes 2y ago
  > Lakoff has written other fascinating books... Favorite fascinating George Lakoff book: Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal About the Mind
- IIAOPSW 2y ago
  I view it as a side effect of linguistic evolution. Sure you could have a bunch of complex rules to strictly type your nouns and limit the type of verbs that validly relate things in one type to another, but if you simply relax the constraint (or just not bother in the first place) metaphors fall out as a natural consequence. See, I just did it. "fall out". Words don't physically fall, but because there's no constraint on using this physical verb to relate non-physical concepts, I can make metaphorical expressions at no additional cost to grammatical complexity. We do this all the time. We might say a certain fact or circumstance "tells us" something to mean its presence let us make a deduction. Eg "this equation tells us the flow is laminar in this regime". Examples of this sort of thing are abundant.
- slibhb 2y ago
  The first part of Metaphors We Live By is fascinating. It describes how so much of language is made of dead metaphors. But then you get to stuff like: > We often frame arguments using the metaphor of war and that frames how we think. The other party is an enemy that must be defeated, its bloody, and there is a loser. However we could frame it as a dance, in which case they are a partner, and for the outcome to succeed they must move together in harmony. That's just silly. The reason arguments are described metaphorically as wars is because arguments and wars serve the same function: they occur when we disagree about something and are means of settling the disagreement. Dances, meanwhile, have nothing to do with disagreement and they don't settle anything.
marginalia_nu 2y ago
I'll leave this here, as it's interesting and related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy)
emilfihlman 2y ago
I've unfortunately noticed that many people don't usually accept analogues or metaphors in arguments, unless they are trying to work with you. They either dismiss them outright or attack the analogue/metaphor without understanding it's an analogue/metaphor. This is even worse when they don't like you personally.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Because analogies and metaphors are not arguments. They are illustrations. In an argument, you need to show the link between cause and effect, a chain of reasoning.
  - emilfihlman 2y ago
    You ran straight into the exact issue I brought up.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - hunter2_ 2y ago
      I don't see which part of your original comment actually contains metaphors, which would seem to be a prerequisite for such an offense. Frankly, I don't even see which part of your original comment is an argument in the first place, as it isn't attempting to persuade. The reply is where both of these begin: illustration as a metaphor for metaphor (how meta!), and persuading the reader to take on a belief.
      - emilfihlman 2y ago
        Sigh. You made an assumption that I don't know how an argument goes and/or that I don't know how to use an analogue/metaphor, and you attacked me saying people don't accept analogues/metaphors. This is about the same fallacy people perform when they don't accept analogues/metaphors or attack them instead. They claim it doesn't relate or illustrate, when infact they just fail to understand. So yeah, you ran into the same issue. E: And yes you are another user account, but since you defend the OP I assume you also hold the same view she does.
Towaway69 2y ago
I use metaphors and analogies to build bridges between me and my listener. Particularly when I talk to a non-techie about some complex technical issues. I find it’s my responsibility to find the bridge that brings us together rather than assuming my listener can’t or won’t understand.
- saghm 2y ago
  > Particularly when I talk to a non-techie about some complex technical issues One time when talking with my brother (who isn't super technical), we were discussing hardware for gaming, and I was explaining to him about how some processors might show up as having twice as many cores as they're described due to hyperthreading. I was having trouble finding a good way to explain to him that each "virtual core" wasn't fully equivalent to a traditional core but still helped provide additional throughput, and after a moment he quipped "oh, so it's like two-ply toilet paper, you don't want to separate a sheet into each part but it's still better than one-ply". I'd never have been able to come up with as relatable an analogy as that, but I've used it on more than one occasion since to help explain to other people.
alephxyz 2y ago
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
- rdtsc 2y ago
  Shaka, when the walls fell That was what I was thinking, too, reading the link.
PaulHoule 2y ago
I think of the use of metaphor by the pioneering hypnotist Milton Erickson, here is some description https://ahsm.org.uk/the-magic-of-metaphors/ https://ahsm.org.uk/the-magic-of-metaphors/ There is a famous story where he helped a cancer patient with severe pain by telling him a story about a plant. It is not so easy to find a good link unfortunately because the SERPs are dominated by NLP shysters and people who want to sell a $1200 course (funny when I mirror the way those people talk and use their tricks I sometimes get a copy of the course for free but use those tricks on normal people and you don’t get such good results…) There are situations where indirect communication works best and it is good to have a library of stories that fit common situations that you can adapt. Some of you might be tired of hearing about my cat “Bob B” while other ones of you will be curious of about him and search for “Bob B cat” on Google and be like my son and wonder why I could be so hung up on an animal who doesn’t love me back but I can say he’s a very good source of material for working with wary people.
- kjhughes 2y ago
  You were right -- that famous story is surprisingly hard to find -- but here's the link: https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-day-at-the-time/ https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-d...
  - VeninVidiaVicii 2y ago
    Thanks for putting in the work to locate this. Sadly, nothing is italicized in that passage so it’s not as awesome as it might be. Edit: Using your link I found the same story elsewhere with emphasis added https://www.noigroup.com/noijam/hypnotic-anaesthesia/ https://www.noigroup.com/noijam/hypnotic-anaesthesia/
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      I would watch out for the technique of picking out words to emphasize. It impresses NLP trainers (necessary if you want to get the $1200 course for free) but makes you come across like a bad pickup artist. Ericsson had a really strange voice and also had the social advantage of being presented as a miracle worker. As I see it, hypnosis is the applied placebo effect, and the social position of the participants, be it stage hypnosis or therapy, is a big part in how well it works.
bee_rider 2y ago
Analogies and metaphors might be usable in conflicts, but I think they are overused in the internet. They can help explain things. It is sometimes the case that two people disagree because each doesn’t understand what the other is saying. They are misinterpreting each other, and a better explanation can clear that up. But more often people just disagree. They understand each other, but disagree. Because the problem isn’t understanding, analogies and metaphors don’t help. Best case people just end up arguing about the analogy, as the best thing it could be is a good proxy for the actual thing, which is what they actually disagree about. Worst case, the analogy or metaphor is constructed to cast one side of the argument as obviously evil or disgusting. This is really just an ad-hom with extra steps, and it just ruins all hope of further conversation Making an analogy or metaphor in this manner is essentially taking a new topic, murdering it, and dressing up the old topic in a crude skin-suit impersonation of it. It never quite fits, different aspects end up strangely twisted and stretched, and it all ends up haphazardly stitched together. Of course this is an obviously evil thing to do, on top of not really being all that convincing. Don’t be a topic-murderer. Don’t “Buffalo Bill” the conversation. Don’t make metaphors and analogies where they aren’t useful.
softfalcon 2y ago
I have found a lot of people I know (who have excellent English, but aren't native English speakers) despise metaphors. This is purely anecdotal, but I am married to a woman from Eastern Europe and I grew up in a schooling system that was primarily Cantonese and Mandarin speaking immigrants. All of these people had trouble speaking English in their formative years and became professionals with excellent English. I will often use metaphors to describe things. For instance, when talking about a "stack" in computer programming, I go, "think of the plates in your dish cupboard". This works great with, say, my mother, who is an English speaker, she likes metaphor and simile. My friends and wife, they all go, "here you go again, stop using metaphors! Just tell me what's happening inside the computer. A computer is NOT a bunch of plates!" This is a trivial example, but it actually happened! They did not want to discuss it with analogies or metaphorical connections! This piqued my curiosity, I asked, "why don't you like metaphors?" and most of them responded, "it feels like you're talking down to me" or "I'm not a child you can use playthings to explain the world to, treat me like an adult or don't bother explaining it". I asked them, "did any of my other behaviour make you feel like I thought you were a child?" and they responded, "no, not really, but once you started comparing things to other things, I got uncomfortable." When we really got down to it, they all admitted the truth to me. Using the somewhat complex language of comparisons, metaphors, simile... it reminded them of how they used to not understand English very well. These comparisons would confuse them when they were younger. Other kids would make fun of them for not "getting it" quickly enough. This remembered emotion made them hate my present-day metaphors and analogies. Explanations in what a native speaker would consider "clear and concise" were frustrating and uncomfortable for them. Just a reminder to all of us, not everyone thinks in the way this article preaches. Some folks would prefer a more direct linguistic approach and find it more respectful, approachable, etc. As our populations become more diverse, it is more and more important to meet people where they are and where it best respects their lived experience.
- XorNot 2y ago
  I am left wondering how you're meant to explain a memory stack - or indeed a great deal of computing - without metaphor though since most of the events of computing aren't directly explainable since they're very different to any common human experience.
alganet 2y ago
One of the main things I discovered when learning new languages is that popular expressions, often rooted in metaphors deeply embedded in the collective consciousness of a group, are the hardest part. Consider pancakes for example. It's a simple word for americans. I think it brings the idea of breakfast, syrup, sweetness. Maybe it brings a different feeling depending whether you're an adult or not. Health might be something in mind. That's all in a single word that can mean a lot of things when used in metaphors. Now, let's look at what pancakes in Brazil mean, or "panquecas". It's a savory dish, for lunch or dinner. It brings the idea of meat, and tomato sauce. It's not an everyday dish. It's related to family meals, special occasions. The brazillian panqueca is more like a creppe, but not like american-made creppes, and it definitely does not bring the same associations to mind. Both dishes seems to come from an earlier, much older tradition that most north americans and brazillians alike probably don't remember or understand. If they do, it's not the first thing that comes to either. So the difference is interesting, maybe funny, maybe a good topic for conversation. That's a single word. We can expand that sort of comparison to broader stuff. What happens when it's not funny or interesting? When something is fine in one culture but brings bad memories to another culture? What about across time? Even within a singular culture, for how long does a metaphor hold? What happens if someone learns english from old movies and try to use those metaphors today? Will all of them hold the same meaning or some of them be offensive nowadays? I certainly notice some difference between how americans and british use of figures of speech. That should be obvious for native english speakers of either of those countries, much more than it is to me. Imagine those differences amplified by a lot, and the gap that this could potentially cause.
- smogcutter 2y ago
  Naively, doesn’t it seem likely that pancakes and panquecas are unrelated “false friends”? Pancakes are “cakes” made in a pan. It’s not a Latin-derived word, so the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own. The simpler explanation is that pan means bread, -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes, and the foods are so different because the words are unrelated coincidental soundalikes.
  - alganet 2y ago
NoCoooode 2y ago
One thing I love about metaphors is that you can tell the general interests of the person making the comparison. Someone who uses football metaphors to explain everything is really saying that all they truly understand is football. Someone who makes everything into a software metaphor only understands coding.
KineticLensman 2y ago
I once worked on simulation systems alongside (UK) military users and was fascinated by the metaphors they used when discussing projects. 'Crocodile closest to the canoe' or 'Wolf closest to the sledge' meant some sort of urgent deadline or serious challenge to a project. 'Left and right of arc' meant how far you could get from sort of middle-ground solution. 'Don't fight the white' meant that you should address a question / requirement, not complain about it (this apparently referred to the colour of paper used in staff college exams). 'Reversing out of a rabbit hole' was fairly intuitive. Really fun times, that shed a lot of light on their culture.
- panarky 2y ago
  Having worked within military and intelligence communities in the US, I'd say those metaphors demonstrate far greater clarity of thought than milspeak acronym-soup: "SOF units in the AO must integrate C4ISR assets in CONOPs, synchronize with JOC and fuse MASINT into the COP, while EOD teams update TTPs for C-IED ops per JIEDDO, factoring IED TTPs observed in TICs, and G2 perform BDA utilizing IMINT to refine HVT targeting packages."
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    Oh dear - that makes sense to me Area of operations Concept of operations Joint operational command Measurement intelligence common operational picture Explosive ordnance disposal Techniques tactics and processes Battle damage assessment Etc etc
    - panarky 2y ago
      Translation: "Intelligence teams should search for bad guys planting bombs in the road. Then special forces should work with other units to destroy them."
bensmoif 2y ago
Am I going to be the first to bring up "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"?
nuancebydefault 2y ago
Metaphores are really nice to use but... where I work, i have a lot of colleagues of different nationalities. Very often I need to explain in detail what I mean by them and that tends to defeat their purpose. Sometimes using very explicit or correct terminology sticks better. As always YMMV
TwoNineFive 2y ago
Metaphors are also a handy hint that you are being manipulated. They are often used by influencers, salespeople, con artists, and other fraudsters. When someone starts using metaphors, you know you are getting taken for a ride.

76 points by rzk 2y ago

I use metaphors far too frequently in spoken conversations, and I have learned that it’s often more effective to cut bait (there’s one!) than to try to transition to a new metaphor mid stream of consciousness. So they are useful, but I’ve noticed weakness in using them as well.

quietbritishjim 2y ago
> more effective to cut bait (there’s one!) I have no idea what you mean by this, I can't even figure out roughly what you mean from context, so I guess that's a weakness of them for a start.
- onethought 2y ago
  Sometimes a metaphor doesn’t make sense so you might abandon it for another rather than trying to stretch it. Sometimes when fishing you catch something your rod or skill level is not capable of reeling in. So you are better to cut the line/bait rather than lose your whole rod.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    That's funny, I'd always interpreted it as you can either: - fish, or - cut bait (slice baitfish into bait-sized pieces) Of course, the latter activity is not fishing, merely fishing-adjacent.
    - onethought 2y ago
      Two distinct expressions that happen to share words. Is how I thought of it. Certainly in the context of the OP it seems he is not presenting an either or but a change course.
  - giardini 2y ago
    I was enlightened to read your interpretation, which Wikipedia indeed lists as a "more modern, alternative interpretation". The prevailing interpretation is a directive to make a decision rather than dally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  "Cut bait" isn't really a metaphor by this time; it's more an idiom that is based on a metaphor. It comes from "fish or cut bait", that is, either do one thing or the other. It means to stop being indecisive, to come to the point.
  - hunter2_ 2y ago
    Seems analogous to "get off the pot" although glossing over the alternative is less common for this one.
throwbadubadu 2y ago
Yes.. I agree to the example and reasoning in the article, but on the other hand metaphors can simplify things too much, and even tell lies. E.g. politicians using them is the prime example. Thus, not convinced...
- k__ 2y ago
  Also, their meaning gets lost over time. That's why it's not recommended to use them in prose. But they get buried (!) anyway.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

intended 2y ago

Having been terrible at communication (and continuing to be so), metaphors and analogies really are excellent tools. The caveats first: Like with all communication, they should be understood by the audience, not offensive, not distracting. A good analogy is like being able to share a scaled model with someone. It invites them to play with concepts and deduce things you haven’t conveyed yet. That said, that level of fidelity is usually the result of thinking about a subject for a while, and handling the fall out of bad analogies for a while. I try and remember the moments my mental image changes. Describing the inciting event, or the change that happened in your mental image, should lead to figuring out a good analogy. At the very least, you will have a story to share, which is what human brains are very good at grasping, and using as models.

e1gen-v 2y ago
I like how you used an analogy of a scale model to explain your understanding of why analogies are useful in communication
detourdog 2y ago
Metaphors or analogies not exactly fitting the pattern of facts under discussion is not a problem. It provides a neutral framework to compare and contrast. How a metaphor or analogy breaks down under scrutiny refines the thought and provides a new opportunity for metaphors or analogies.

gcanyon 2y ago

That's an interesting article, and I don't necessarily disagree with the thesis, but the article certainly doesn't argue well in support of its premise. It simply states it as fact, citing a book that apparently actually makes the case, but without citing anything near enough of it to actually make the case.

wirthjason 2y ago

How could someone write a post like this and leave off the great book “Metaphors We Live By” by Lakoff and Johnson? Is particularly found the part about how metaphors “hide and highlight” information. In other words the metaphor we use necessitates how we think. We often frame arguments using the metaphor of war and that frames how we think. The other party is an enemy that must be defeated, its bloody, and there is a loser. However we could frame it as a dance, in which case they are a partner, and for the outcome to succeed they must move together in harmony. Lakoff has written other fascinating books like how metaphors are used in politics as well as math (“Where Mathematics Comes From”).

kjhughes 2y ago
> Lakoff has written other fascinating books... Favorite fascinating George Lakoff book: Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal About the Mind
IIAOPSW 2y ago
I view it as a side effect of linguistic evolution. Sure you could have a bunch of complex rules to strictly type your nouns and limit the type of verbs that validly relate things in one type to another, but if you simply relax the constraint (or just not bother in the first place) metaphors fall out as a natural consequence. See, I just did it. "fall out". Words don't physically fall, but because there's no constraint on using this physical verb to relate non-physical concepts, I can make metaphorical expressions at no additional cost to grammatical complexity. We do this all the time. We might say a certain fact or circumstance "tells us" something to mean its presence let us make a deduction. Eg "this equation tells us the flow is laminar in this regime". Examples of this sort of thing are abundant.
slibhb 2y ago
The first part of Metaphors We Live By is fascinating. It describes how so much of language is made of dead metaphors. But then you get to stuff like: > We often frame arguments using the metaphor of war and that frames how we think. The other party is an enemy that must be defeated, its bloody, and there is a loser. However we could frame it as a dance, in which case they are a partner, and for the outcome to succeed they must move together in harmony. That's just silly. The reason arguments are described metaphorically as wars is because arguments and wars serve the same function: they occur when we disagree about something and are means of settling the disagreement. Dances, meanwhile, have nothing to do with disagreement and they don't settle anything.

marginalia_nu 2y ago

I'll leave this here, as it's interesting and related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy)

emilfihlman 2y ago

I've unfortunately noticed that many people don't usually accept analogues or metaphors in arguments, unless they are trying to work with you. They either dismiss them outright or attack the analogue/metaphor without understanding it's an analogue/metaphor. This is even worse when they don't like you personally.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
Because analogies and metaphors are not arguments. They are illustrations. In an argument, you need to show the link between cause and effect, a chain of reasoning.
- emilfihlman 2y ago
  You ran straight into the exact issue I brought up.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hunter2_ 2y ago
    I don't see which part of your original comment actually contains metaphors, which would seem to be a prerequisite for such an offense. Frankly, I don't even see which part of your original comment is an argument in the first place, as it isn't attempting to persuade. The reply is where both of these begin: illustration as a metaphor for metaphor (how meta!), and persuading the reader to take on a belief.
    - emilfihlman 2y ago
      Sigh. You made an assumption that I don't know how an argument goes and/or that I don't know how to use an analogue/metaphor, and you attacked me saying people don't accept analogues/metaphors. This is about the same fallacy people perform when they don't accept analogues/metaphors or attack them instead. They claim it doesn't relate or illustrate, when infact they just fail to understand. So yeah, you ran into the same issue. E: And yes you are another user account, but since you defend the OP I assume you also hold the same view she does.

Towaway69 2y ago

I use metaphors and analogies to build bridges between me and my listener. Particularly when I talk to a non-techie about some complex technical issues. I find it’s my responsibility to find the bridge that brings us together rather than assuming my listener can’t or won’t understand.

saghm 2y ago
> Particularly when I talk to a non-techie about some complex technical issues One time when talking with my brother (who isn't super technical), we were discussing hardware for gaming, and I was explaining to him about how some processors might show up as having twice as many cores as they're described due to hyperthreading. I was having trouble finding a good way to explain to him that each "virtual core" wasn't fully equivalent to a traditional core but still helped provide additional throughput, and after a moment he quipped "oh, so it's like two-ply toilet paper, you don't want to separate a sheet into each part but it's still better than one-ply". I'd never have been able to come up with as relatable an analogy as that, but I've used it on more than one occasion since to help explain to other people.

alephxyz 2y ago

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

rdtsc 2y ago
Shaka, when the walls fell That was what I was thinking, too, reading the link.

PaulHoule 2y ago

I think of the use of metaphor by the pioneering hypnotist Milton Erickson, here is some description https://ahsm.org.uk/the-magic-of-metaphors/ https://ahsm.org.uk/the-magic-of-metaphors/ There is a famous story where he helped a cancer patient with severe pain by telling him a story about a plant. It is not so easy to find a good link unfortunately because the SERPs are dominated by NLP shysters and people who want to sell a $1200 course (funny when I mirror the way those people talk and use their tricks I sometimes get a copy of the course for free but use those tricks on normal people and you don’t get such good results…) There are situations where indirect communication works best and it is good to have a library of stories that fit common situations that you can adapt. Some of you might be tired of hearing about my cat “Bob B” while other ones of you will be curious of about him and search for “Bob B cat” on Google and be like my son and wonder why I could be so hung up on an animal who doesn’t love me back but I can say he’s a very good source of material for working with wary people.

kjhughes 2y ago
You were right -- that famous story is surprisingly hard to find -- but here's the link: https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-day-at-the-time/ https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-d...
- VeninVidiaVicii 2y ago
  Thanks for putting in the work to locate this. Sadly, nothing is italicized in that passage so it’s not as awesome as it might be. Edit: Using your link I found the same story elsewhere with emphasis added https://www.noigroup.com/noijam/hypnotic-anaesthesia/ https://www.noigroup.com/noijam/hypnotic-anaesthesia/
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    I would watch out for the technique of picking out words to emphasize. It impresses NLP trainers (necessary if you want to get the $1200 course for free) but makes you come across like a bad pickup artist. Ericsson had a really strange voice and also had the social advantage of being presented as a miracle worker. As I see it, hypnosis is the applied placebo effect, and the social position of the participants, be it stage hypnosis or therapy, is a big part in how well it works.

bee_rider 2y ago

Analogies and metaphors might be usable in conflicts, but I think they are overused in the internet. They can help explain things. It is sometimes the case that two people disagree because each doesn’t understand what the other is saying. They are misinterpreting each other, and a better explanation can clear that up. But more often people just disagree. They understand each other, but disagree. Because the problem isn’t understanding, analogies and metaphors don’t help. Best case people just end up arguing about the analogy, as the best thing it could be is a good proxy for the actual thing, which is what they actually disagree about. Worst case, the analogy or metaphor is constructed to cast one side of the argument as obviously evil or disgusting. This is really just an ad-hom with extra steps, and it just ruins all hope of further conversation Making an analogy or metaphor in this manner is essentially taking a new topic, murdering it, and dressing up the old topic in a crude skin-suit impersonation of it. It never quite fits, different aspects end up strangely twisted and stretched, and it all ends up haphazardly stitched together. Of course this is an obviously evil thing to do, on top of not really being all that convincing. Don’t be a topic-murderer. Don’t “Buffalo Bill” the conversation. Don’t make metaphors and analogies where they aren’t useful.

softfalcon 2y ago

I have found a lot of people I know (who have excellent English, but aren't native English speakers) despise metaphors. This is purely anecdotal, but I am married to a woman from Eastern Europe and I grew up in a schooling system that was primarily Cantonese and Mandarin speaking immigrants. All of these people had trouble speaking English in their formative years and became professionals with excellent English. I will often use metaphors to describe things. For instance, when talking about a "stack" in computer programming, I go, "think of the plates in your dish cupboard". This works great with, say, my mother, who is an English speaker, she likes metaphor and simile. My friends and wife, they all go, "here you go again, stop using metaphors! Just tell me what's happening inside the computer. A computer is NOT a bunch of plates!" This is a trivial example, but it actually happened! They did not want to discuss it with analogies or metaphorical connections! This piqued my curiosity, I asked, "why don't you like metaphors?" and most of them responded, "it feels like you're talking down to me" or "I'm not a child you can use playthings to explain the world to, treat me like an adult or don't bother explaining it". I asked them, "did any of my other behaviour make you feel like I thought you were a child?" and they responded, "no, not really, but once you started comparing things to other things, I got uncomfortable." When we really got down to it, they all admitted the truth to me. Using the somewhat complex language of comparisons, metaphors, simile... it reminded them of how they used to not understand English very well. These comparisons would confuse them when they were younger. Other kids would make fun of them for not "getting it" quickly enough. This remembered emotion made them hate my present-day metaphors and analogies. Explanations in what a native speaker would consider "clear and concise" were frustrating and uncomfortable for them. Just a reminder to all of us, not everyone thinks in the way this article preaches. Some folks would prefer a more direct linguistic approach and find it more respectful, approachable, etc. As our populations become more diverse, it is more and more important to meet people where they are and where it best respects their lived experience.

XorNot 2y ago
I am left wondering how you're meant to explain a memory stack - or indeed a great deal of computing - without metaphor though since most of the events of computing aren't directly explainable since they're very different to any common human experience.

alganet 2y ago

One of the main things I discovered when learning new languages is that popular expressions, often rooted in metaphors deeply embedded in the collective consciousness of a group, are the hardest part. Consider pancakes for example. It's a simple word for americans. I think it brings the idea of breakfast, syrup, sweetness. Maybe it brings a different feeling depending whether you're an adult or not. Health might be something in mind. That's all in a single word that can mean a lot of things when used in metaphors. Now, let's look at what pancakes in Brazil mean, or "panquecas". It's a savory dish, for lunch or dinner. It brings the idea of meat, and tomato sauce. It's not an everyday dish. It's related to family meals, special occasions. The brazillian panqueca is more like a creppe, but not like american-made creppes, and it definitely does not bring the same associations to mind. Both dishes seems to come from an earlier, much older tradition that most north americans and brazillians alike probably don't remember or understand. If they do, it's not the first thing that comes to either. So the difference is interesting, maybe funny, maybe a good topic for conversation. That's a single word. We can expand that sort of comparison to broader stuff. What happens when it's not funny or interesting? When something is fine in one culture but brings bad memories to another culture? What about across time? Even within a singular culture, for how long does a metaphor hold? What happens if someone learns english from old movies and try to use those metaphors today? Will all of them hold the same meaning or some of them be offensive nowadays? I certainly notice some difference between how americans and british use of figures of speech. That should be obvious for native english speakers of either of those countries, much more than it is to me. Imagine those differences amplified by a lot, and the gap that this could potentially cause.

smogcutter 2y ago
Naively, doesn’t it seem likely that pancakes and panquecas are unrelated “false friends”? Pancakes are “cakes” made in a pan. It’s not a Latin-derived word, so the only way they could be related is if panquecas is a loan word that took on a life if its own. The simpler explanation is that pan means bread, -quecas definitely doesn’t mean cakes, and the foods are so different because the words are unrelated coincidental soundalikes.
- alganet 2y ago

NoCoooode 2y ago

One thing I love about metaphors is that you can tell the general interests of the person making the comparison. Someone who uses football metaphors to explain everything is really saying that all they truly understand is football. Someone who makes everything into a software metaphor only understands coding.

KineticLensman 2y ago

I once worked on simulation systems alongside (UK) military users and was fascinated by the metaphors they used when discussing projects. 'Crocodile closest to the canoe' or 'Wolf closest to the sledge' meant some sort of urgent deadline or serious challenge to a project. 'Left and right of arc' meant how far you could get from sort of middle-ground solution. 'Don't fight the white' meant that you should address a question / requirement, not complain about it (this apparently referred to the colour of paper used in staff college exams). 'Reversing out of a rabbit hole' was fairly intuitive. Really fun times, that shed a lot of light on their culture.

panarky 2y ago
Having worked within military and intelligence communities in the US, I'd say those metaphors demonstrate far greater clarity of thought than milspeak acronym-soup: "SOF units in the AO must integrate C4ISR assets in CONOPs, synchronize with JOC and fuse MASINT into the COP, while EOD teams update TTPs for C-IED ops per JIEDDO, factoring IED TTPs observed in TICs, and G2 perform BDA utilizing IMINT to refine HVT targeting packages."
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  Oh dear - that makes sense to me Area of operations Concept of operations Joint operational command Measurement intelligence common operational picture Explosive ordnance disposal Techniques tactics and processes Battle damage assessment Etc etc
  - panarky 2y ago
    Translation: "Intelligence teams should search for bad guys planting bombs in the road. Then special forces should work with other units to destroy them."

bensmoif 2y ago

Am I going to be the first to bring up "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"?

nuancebydefault 2y ago

Metaphores are really nice to use but... where I work, i have a lot of colleagues of different nationalities. Very often I need to explain in detail what I mean by them and that tends to defeat their purpose. Sometimes using very explicit or correct terminology sticks better. As always YMMV

TwoNineFive 2y ago

Metaphors are also a handy hint that you are being manipulated. They are often used by influencers, salespeople, con artists, and other fraudsters. When someone starts using metaphors, you know you are getting taken for a ride.