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Who is responsible for the greatest change to our language? Teenage girls

38 points by Tomte 2y ago

cenamus 2y ago
Related (and mentioned) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_paradox_(sociolinguistics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_paradox_(sociolinguisti...
rty32 2y ago
>>> Gretchen: "That is so fetch!" >>> Regina: "Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen! It's not going to happen!" So now we know there is some linguistic context to that conversation.
physicsguy 2y ago
Slay
orangepanda 2y ago
> If you're on … a train or a bus, what you should do is position yourself as close as possible to a group of young women No, I don’t think I will
- watwut 2y ago
  How to look like a creep 101.
- qwery 2y ago
  I was almost surprised that anyone printed that 'advice' but then I remembered it's ABC News Online, Australia's most trusted news service. It's probably a misquote and/or the person who they thought they were quoting actually died three years ago and had a completely different name. In any case, barf me out. No way. Gag me with a spoon.
  - thelastparadise 2y ago
    Barf me out too, indeed.
- latexr 2y ago
  It gets funnier: > (…) position yourself as close as possible to a group of young women and then shut your eyes and listen. Like a cartoon character faking being asleep. Yes, I’m sure those teenagers won’t find that creepy or weird at all and will continue speaking as if you weren’t there. Though in fairness, they’re quoting a woman. Maybe the interviewer was also a woman and they were really speaking one-to-one, not thinking that specific section would be quoted.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
guenthert 2y ago
Teenage girls? Fer sure, totally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM
zmgsabst 2y ago
What happens if you include image memes? ie, the dominant mode of chatter in male circles. I’m not sure how you’d quantify generic “meme rate of change” though, across such disparate mediums.
fakedang 2y ago
Yeah sure, bussin' fr no cap.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  > Phrases that are "out": no cap Time to update, ser
dist-epoch 2y ago
> "Women seem to have an innate linguistic ability that's superior to men's," she says. Imagine saying that, but in reverse.
- WJW 2y ago
  "Men seem to have an innate tallness ability that is superior to womens'?" What is wrong with that? You seem to be trying to make some sort of American culture war argument out of something completely uncontroversial.
qwery 2y ago
You might also be interested in Dr Geoff Lindsey's video on 'vocal fry'[0] which is a linguistic phenomenon also associated with young women (although it isn't that simple). Dr Lindsey's channel is totally bitchin' like you wouldn't believe. You'll love it! I'm sure. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yL2GezneU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yL2GezneU
- qingcharles 2y ago
  > Dr Lindsey's channel is totally bitchin' like you wouldn't believe. On god fr fr no cap.
- ddmf 2y ago
  When you mentioned vocal fry and I saw a YT link I thought I was going to see this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHt-tYS2es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHt-tYS2es It's a shame it didn't get renewed.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mnk47 2y ago
>Often slang has originated from marginalised groups such as the queer community or POC (People of Colour). And that hasn't changed, that is still exactly the case. When it's not 4chan lingo (which mostly stays in text/image form), it's AAVE. Not sure why it's always "Gen Z" or teenage girls getting credit for this. Just look at their list of phrases that are "in": Phrases that are "in" >Bet — 'I'm down'. For example, if someone asks you to go out for dinner, you say 'bet' >You devoured/ate — said in response to someone succeeding with style >Full send — not caring, just going for it >Slaps — If something slaps, it's really good (normally in a food context) >Ceebs — a variation of CBF [can't be f*ked] >Ick — a sudden feeling of grossness, often about a person's behaviour or mannerisms out of these, only "Ceebs" (sounds like the a twist on "can't be arsed") and "Ick" aren't AAVE. And the list of phrases that are "out": >No cap — the truth >Lit — something is great, but now considered very "2017-2018" >Fam — used in reference to friends >Slay — used when someone performs well, but considered dated and you'd only use the term ironically These are all AAVE.
deafpolygon 2y ago
So can I assign the responsibility of coming up with "skibidi toilet" to women in general, then?
- hun3 2y ago
  With all due respect, I regret to inform you that your linguistic trendiness has been mogged (blud is seething rn) and your sanity fanum taxed by W rizzlers ong fr fr so scuff no cap
  - hun3 2y ago
    (Disclaimer: this is a joke)
    - thelastparadise 2y ago
      What did you say can you translate please.
      - hun3 2y ago
        It basically says both trendiness and sanity has been robbed away by "W rizzlers" a.k.a. "someone with lots of charm and charisma" (by Gen Z and Alpha standards), and the addressee ("blud") is frustrated ("seething") by the fact. Also, I often see such usage of the parentheses above in memes like this.
  - crucialfelix 2y ago
    Didn't you read the article? No cap is out. Even I, a middle aged ex-hipster knew that. ;) (I know, emojis are so over) I was in Paris and somebody was complaining that that the kids were saying "en vrai" all the time. I explained to her that it's "for real" which is one of my favorite 200x era hip hop phrases. Most slang goes way back. "Cool" is 1930s black jazz culture, and now every white grandma say it without it even sounding odd.
    - hun3 2y ago
lll-o-lll 2y ago
[flagged]
wrp 2y ago
When I worked in Japan, I heard much comment about linguistic innovation among teenage girls. I had the impression that it was more extreme in Japan than other countries, but maybe not. With linguistic change driven mostly by females, I wonder what this indicates about societies that are or were linguistically conservative, also whether there was a difference between literate and pre-literate societies.
- srik 2y ago
  More tangibly, kawaii culture is one of the most influential cultural revolutions to ever emerge primarily from teenage girls; so Japan is indeed a great example here.
WJW 2y ago
Makes sense. It has been well documented by linguists for decades that women both communicate more than men and also on average use a bigger vocabulary to communicate more precisely. Teenage girls in particular spend more time together than older women, as they don't yet have things like work and parenting to distract them. It makes sense that the majority of linguistic innovations comes from the most capable practitioners.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  > use a bigger vocabulary to communicate more precisely I contest this point. Dumping /dev/random to stdout does not imply more meaningful communication. I know many people who are fond of saying a lot of words whilst saying nothing at all.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  > for sure —MUZ (In my headcanon "super" had come into common use ca.2000, but now I see it was already extant at least two decades earlier: "It's like so bitching 'cause like everybody's like super-super nice")
infp_arborist 2y ago
So I am guessing if we teach teenage girls (and future mothers) nonviolent communication, we will have peace in our communities in a couple of generations?
- krona 2y ago
  If by 'peace' you mean the coercive control, manipulation and emotional exploitation of those around you, perhaps.
  - orwin 2y ago
    This is a dark view on non violent communication. I don't think it is as useful as it's proponents says, but surely you give it way more power and intent that those techniques really have, no ?
    - watwut 2y ago
      You can argue whether it is manipulative, but you can not deny "the intent" here. You you read up technique and then apply it, the conscious intent is 100% there. You made an active choice and went out of your way to enact it.
      - orwin 2y ago
        I can deny the intent to be exploitative and coercive. Really I don't see how. I would like an example, i have learned sales techniques and to me even sales techniques, who are multiple order of magnitude more manipulative imho, aren't really coercive . Also, sales techniques works way better on persons not aware of them, non-violent communication mostly work if both persons use it (that makes it way less actionable than it's proponents affirm), which is to me the opposite of exploitative.
        watwut 2y ago
        Maybe you have jist shifted what you allow yourself to see as coercive and manipulative in the process of accepting sales techniques.
evilfred 2y ago
sure, just watch Clueless
- RubberbandSoul 2y ago
  or listen to Valley Girl by Franc Zappa
  - drewcoo 2y ago
    Frank. And the valley girl voice was his daughter, Moon Unit. Here they were on Letterman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijg2_vVyu0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijg2_vVyu0Q

38 points by Tomte 2y ago

Related (and mentioned) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_paradox_(sociolinguistics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_paradox_(sociolinguisti...

rty32 2y ago

>>> Gretchen: "That is so fetch!" >>> Regina: "Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen! It's not going to happen!" So now we know there is some linguistic context to that conversation.

physicsguy 2y ago

Slay

orangepanda 2y ago

> If you're on … a train or a bus, what you should do is position yourself as close as possible to a group of young women No, I don’t think I will

watwut 2y ago
How to look like a creep 101.
qwery 2y ago
I was almost surprised that anyone printed that 'advice' but then I remembered it's ABC News Online, Australia's most trusted news service. It's probably a misquote and/or the person who they thought they were quoting actually died three years ago and had a completely different name. In any case, barf me out. No way. Gag me with a spoon.
- thelastparadise 2y ago
  Barf me out too, indeed.
latexr 2y ago
It gets funnier: > (…) position yourself as close as possible to a group of young women and then shut your eyes and listen. Like a cartoon character faking being asleep. Yes, I’m sure those teenagers won’t find that creepy or weird at all and will continue speaking as if you weren’t there. Though in fairness, they’re quoting a woman. Maybe the interviewer was also a woman and they were really speaking one-to-one, not thinking that specific section would be quoted.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

guenthert 2y ago

Teenage girls? Fer sure, totally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb21lsCQ3EM

zmgsabst 2y ago

What happens if you include image memes? ie, the dominant mode of chatter in male circles. I’m not sure how you’d quantify generic “meme rate of change” though, across such disparate mediums.

fakedang 2y ago

Yeah sure, bussin' fr no cap.

dist-epoch 2y ago
> Phrases that are "out": no cap Time to update, ser

dist-epoch 2y ago

> "Women seem to have an innate linguistic ability that's superior to men's," she says. Imagine saying that, but in reverse.

WJW 2y ago
"Men seem to have an innate tallness ability that is superior to womens'?" What is wrong with that? You seem to be trying to make some sort of American culture war argument out of something completely uncontroversial.

qwery 2y ago

You might also be interested in Dr Geoff Lindsey's video on 'vocal fry'[0] which is a linguistic phenomenon also associated with young women (although it isn't that simple). Dr Lindsey's channel is totally bitchin' like you wouldn't believe. You'll love it! I'm sure. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yL2GezneU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yL2GezneU

qingcharles 2y ago
> Dr Lindsey's channel is totally bitchin' like you wouldn't believe. On god fr fr no cap.
ddmf 2y ago
When you mentioned vocal fry and I saw a YT link I thought I was going to see this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHt-tYS2es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHt-tYS2es It's a shame it didn't get renewed.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mnk47 2y ago

>Often slang has originated from marginalised groups such as the queer community or POC (People of Colour). And that hasn't changed, that is still exactly the case. When it's not 4chan lingo (which mostly stays in text/image form), it's AAVE. Not sure why it's always "Gen Z" or teenage girls getting credit for this. Just look at their list of phrases that are "in": Phrases that are "in" >Bet — 'I'm down'. For example, if someone asks you to go out for dinner, you say 'bet' >You devoured/ate — said in response to someone succeeding with style >Full send — not caring, just going for it >Slaps — If something slaps, it's really good (normally in a food context) >Ceebs — a variation of CBF [can't be f*ked] >Ick — a sudden feeling of grossness, often about a person's behaviour or mannerisms out of these, only "Ceebs" (sounds like the a twist on "can't be arsed") and "Ick" aren't AAVE. And the list of phrases that are "out": >No cap — the truth >Lit — something is great, but now considered very "2017-2018" >Fam — used in reference to friends >Slay — used when someone performs well, but considered dated and you'd only use the term ironically These are all AAVE.

deafpolygon 2y ago

So can I assign the responsibility of coming up with "skibidi toilet" to women in general, then?

hun3 2y ago
With all due respect, I regret to inform you that your linguistic trendiness has been mogged (blud is seething rn) and your sanity fanum taxed by W rizzlers ong fr fr so scuff no cap
- hun3 2y ago
  (Disclaimer: this is a joke)
  - thelastparadise 2y ago
    What did you say can you translate please.
    - hun3 2y ago
      It basically says both trendiness and sanity has been robbed away by "W rizzlers" a.k.a. "someone with lots of charm and charisma" (by Gen Z and Alpha standards), and the addressee ("blud") is frustrated ("seething") by the fact. Also, I often see such usage of the parentheses above in memes like this.
- crucialfelix 2y ago
  Didn't you read the article? No cap is out. Even I, a middle aged ex-hipster knew that. ;) (I know, emojis are so over) I was in Paris and somebody was complaining that that the kids were saying "en vrai" all the time. I explained to her that it's "for real" which is one of my favorite 200x era hip hop phrases. Most slang goes way back. "Cool" is 1930s black jazz culture, and now every white grandma say it without it even sounding odd.
  - hun3 2y ago

lll-o-lll 2y ago

[flagged]

wrp 2y ago

When I worked in Japan, I heard much comment about linguistic innovation among teenage girls. I had the impression that it was more extreme in Japan than other countries, but maybe not. With linguistic change driven mostly by females, I wonder what this indicates about societies that are or were linguistically conservative, also whether there was a difference between literate and pre-literate societies.

srik 2y ago
More tangibly, kawaii culture is one of the most influential cultural revolutions to ever emerge primarily from teenage girls; so Japan is indeed a great example here.

WJW 2y ago

Makes sense. It has been well documented by linguists for decades that women both communicate more than men and also on average use a bigger vocabulary to communicate more precisely. Teenage girls in particular spend more time together than older women, as they don't yet have things like work and parenting to distract them. It makes sense that the majority of linguistic innovations comes from the most capable practitioners.

Ferret7446 2y ago
> use a bigger vocabulary to communicate more precisely I contest this point. Dumping /dev/random to stdout does not imply more meaningful communication. I know many people who are fond of saying a lot of words whilst saying nothing at all.
082349872349872 2y ago
> for sure —MUZ (In my headcanon "super" had come into common use ca.2000, but now I see it was already extant at least two decades earlier: "It's like so bitching 'cause like everybody's like super-super nice")

infp_arborist 2y ago

So I am guessing if we teach teenage girls (and future mothers) nonviolent communication, we will have peace in our communities in a couple of generations?

krona 2y ago
If by 'peace' you mean the coercive control, manipulation and emotional exploitation of those around you, perhaps.
- orwin 2y ago
  This is a dark view on non violent communication. I don't think it is as useful as it's proponents says, but surely you give it way more power and intent that those techniques really have, no ?
  - watwut 2y ago
    You can argue whether it is manipulative, but you can not deny "the intent" here. You you read up technique and then apply it, the conscious intent is 100% there. You made an active choice and went out of your way to enact it.
    - orwin 2y ago
      I can deny the intent to be exploitative and coercive. Really I don't see how. I would like an example, i have learned sales techniques and to me even sales techniques, who are multiple order of magnitude more manipulative imho, aren't really coercive . Also, sales techniques works way better on persons not aware of them, non-violent communication mostly work if both persons use it (that makes it way less actionable than it's proponents affirm), which is to me the opposite of exploitative.
      - watwut 2y ago
        Maybe you have jist shifted what you allow yourself to see as coercive and manipulative in the process of accepting sales techniques.

evilfred 2y ago

sure, just watch Clueless

RubberbandSoul 2y ago
or listen to Valley Girl by Franc Zappa
- drewcoo 2y ago
  Frank. And the valley girl voice was his daughter, Moon Unit. Here they were on Letterman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijg2_vVyu0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijg2_vVyu0Q