3 ms·

The problem is that two different systems collide (in the example of Terraria). Having an open world game and a learning curve for the things the user needs to

The problem is that two different systems collide (in the example of Terraria). Having an open world game and a learning curve for the things the user needs to understand to progress. Looking up informations in a wiki most often happens when the game gets boring or overly complex for the player to have fun (check Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's flow theory on that). Games that do that well, such as Zelda (which does this very well) introduce new mechanics and scenarios in an very iterative way. By having a linear structure. Other games use AI to control the gameplay flow. A linear level structure could look like this: A & B are different types of enemies | A (new enemy) | A,A (more complex situation) | B (new enemy) | B,B (more complex situation) | A,B (new combination) | A,A,B,B (complex new combination) | ... This method works with lots of systems, such as level design elements, enemies or construction of ingame elements. The problem is that procedural content generation and open worlds make it hard for the game designer to introduce the content to the player in this order. interesting videos on this topic: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMggqenxuZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMggqenxuZc (Half-Life 2's Invisible Tutorial) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnt5zxb8W0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnt5zxb8W0Y (Director AI for Balancing In-Game Experiences) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GV814cWiAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GV814cWiAw (Can we Improve Tutorials for Complex Games?)

haunter 2y ago
>introduce new mechanics and scenarios in an very iterative way. By having a linear structure. A lot of games are also ruined by this handhelding style of design where 20 hours in you are still seeing tutorials
- rspoerri 2y ago
  There is a balance between making a game to difficult and boring. You were likely talking a moment when the game got boring or repetitive, because you already understood the mechanics, when you encountered another gameplay tutorial explaining it. Also games might target new players, while you might have encountered similar game mechanics before. But even then a good tutorial will make it fun, although it may be easy to solve. It's also helps to make it solvable fast if you already know the mechanics. But still, if you add a new game mechanics 20 into a game, it is good practice to add a situation where you can learn to handle it. A good example is the gravity gun in half life, or specific features of it that only get available in the endgame.
- chii 2y ago
  > you are still seeing tutorials that's just bad game/level design - the player should never be aware that they're being lead on by a tutorial.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  The Talos Principle 2 in my mind is good example of this. It really comes to having too many mechanisms in game. So any of them do not get enough depth for exploring, but instead you are just going to next one and starting new tutorial over and over again... Lot of content, but by the last 4th of game, you are still doing what is in essence tutorials.
noirscape 2y ago
Terraria arguably more has a scale problem. There's in-game interfaces for pretty much all the things players need (crafting recipes, item effects, instructions on where to go next, recent update added a bestiary that fills out as you fight enemies/bosses), but the problem is that all these interfaces (minus bestiary) were originally designed for a gameplay loop that ended by the time the player fights what's now the third progression boss in the game. Obscure NPC comments work if there's only like 20 secrets to push for. You'll need some tracker once you go above that number. Crafting recipes stop having any interesting thumbing through for cool new things when to find them you need to talk to an NPC who just gives you a list of all things you can craft with an item you're holding (especially common early game since a lot of minable materials end up in late game recipes). Item effect descriptions are too limited to explain all relevant effects, which pushes people further to a wiki. Wiki syndrome tends to occur if the game has a bad UI to explain itself. Weirdly, having no UI for it can sometimes be better for this sort of thing; players are pretty willing to accept "behind the scenes magic" as long as the info they do have is giving them the idea that it's working. (Classic horror games like Resident Evil are a good example where a "no UI is better than some UI" works.)

haunter 2y ago

>introduce new mechanics and scenarios in an very iterative way. By having a linear structure. A lot of games are also ruined by this handhelding style of design where 20 hours in you are still seeing tutorials

rspoerri 2y ago
There is a balance between making a game to difficult and boring. You were likely talking a moment when the game got boring or repetitive, because you already understood the mechanics, when you encountered another gameplay tutorial explaining it. Also games might target new players, while you might have encountered similar game mechanics before. But even then a good tutorial will make it fun, although it may be easy to solve. It's also helps to make it solvable fast if you already know the mechanics. But still, if you add a new game mechanics 20 into a game, it is good practice to add a situation where you can learn to handle it. A good example is the gravity gun in half life, or specific features of it that only get available in the endgame.
chii 2y ago
> you are still seeing tutorials that's just bad game/level design - the player should never be aware that they're being lead on by a tutorial.
Ekaros 2y ago
The Talos Principle 2 in my mind is good example of this. It really comes to having too many mechanisms in game. So any of them do not get enough depth for exploring, but instead you are just going to next one and starting new tutorial over and over again... Lot of content, but by the last 4th of game, you are still doing what is in essence tutorials.

noirscape 2y ago

Terraria arguably more has a scale problem. There's in-game interfaces for pretty much all the things players need (crafting recipes, item effects, instructions on where to go next, recent update added a bestiary that fills out as you fight enemies/bosses), but the problem is that all these interfaces (minus bestiary) were originally designed for a gameplay loop that ended by the time the player fights what's now the third progression boss in the game. Obscure NPC comments work if there's only like 20 secrets to push for. You'll need some tracker once you go above that number. Crafting recipes stop having any interesting thumbing through for cool new things when to find them you need to talk to an NPC who just gives you a list of all things you can craft with an item you're holding (especially common early game since a lot of minable materials end up in late game recipes). Item effect descriptions are too limited to explain all relevant effects, which pushes people further to a wiki. Wiki syndrome tends to occur if the game has a bad UI to explain itself. Weirdly, having no UI for it can sometimes be better for this sort of thing; players are pretty willing to accept "behind the scenes magic" as long as the info they do have is giving them the idea that it's working. (Classic horror games like Resident Evil are a good example where a "no UI is better than some UI" works.)