3 ms·

It is more and more crucial that Europe, while remaining a stolid ally to the US, tries not to be fully involved in American (economic) wars, propaganda and pro

by sph 2y ago

It is more and more crucial that Europe, while remaining a stolid ally to the US, tries not to be fully involved in American (economic) wars, propaganda and protectionism. We have been fully dependent on them, now it is time to be good mates, but each with separate domestic and foreign policies. If Republicans win next year, this is not gonna get any better.

Saturnial22 2y ago
[flagged]
- jajko 2y ago
  > Europe has plenty of its own propaganda to spread. Aren't you busy locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet? Ignoring primitive racist aspects of the comments, no Europe as a whole (but lets say EU, Switzerland nor Norway don't care about this at all) doesn't have any force to speak of it can project, any clear plans for any military nor economical expansion of its influence outside its boundaries. In contrary, we are currently weak (and eventually will get steamrolled by powerplayers from the east), undecisive, busy destroying some of the powerhouses of our economies like car industry. Germany is still terrified to the core for the sins of their grandfathers so would prefer half of Europe burning than do a nanometer aggressive move, and its the strongest voice on whole bloc - just look at how little they are actually helping Ukraine and how effectively they block any bigger attempts of other states. Heck they are trying to circumvent 2% GDP yearly NATO requirement to include highways maintenance costs in it, thus Wehrmacht is a joke - ie Polish army would steamroll them all any day, poles took a hard lesson from russian atrocities done on them in the past and finance army correspondingly. Its sad to watch it, German population deserves much better leadership since competence is there. Not even digging into other big states like France with its own big issues, but at least they don't neglect military and are the only ones with nukes.
- benterix 2y ago
  > Aren't you busy locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet? As an European, I have problems understanding what you mean - could you clarify?
  - thefounder 2y ago
    I think it’s about hate speech but the OP doesn’t know that UK!= EU. For example in the UK you may get jail time if you say a transgender girl is actually boy or whatever. See here one famous case: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146065 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146065 That being said free speech is being eroded in the EU as well but the UK is “leading” that. For example the EU tries for some time to mandate backdoors into encrypted chat applications.
    - zimpenfish 2y ago
      > you may get jail time if you say a transgender girl is actually boy or whatever. See here one famous case "J.K. Rowling will not be arrested for comments about transgender women" That's a famous (non-)case which completely disproves your assertion though.
      - tim333 2y ago
        Indeed the "locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet" in the UK seems basically fictional. Have there been real any cases of that? Whenever you read Americans say the awful brits locked someone up for saying nasty things you find it's actually something like saying things plus assaulting a police officer or similar.
        zimpenfish 2y ago
        > Have there been real any cases of that? I don't think there has. There's definitely been people locked up for tweeting[1] but that was less "mean" and more "overt racism". (Before the Public Order Act 1986[2], Section 5 was amended in 2013, people were able to be charged for "insults" which was clearly ludicrous.) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/27/student-jailed-fabrice-muamba-tweets https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/27/student-jailed-fa... [2] Yet another thing to thank Thatcher for. Who, ironically, is probably a hero of the kind of people who go around saying things like "the left will lock you up for saying mean things."
        2y ago
throw310822 2y ago
> while remaining a stolid ally to the US nice typo
- cced 2y ago
  > From Middle French stolide, ‘stolid’… > calm and not emotional
  - throw310822 2y ago
    You're right, I've always misinterpreted the word, it's more neutral than I thought! It comes from the Latin stolidus: “inert, dull, stupid”. So it's a strange case of a word with initially negative connotations that becomes somewhat neutral. Although Oxford Languages (Google's source) lists also "bovine", "lethargic", "torpid" and "stupid" as similar words, after "impassive", "unemotional" and "calm".
elefanten 2y ago
[flagged]
- sph 2y ago
  Classic "with us or against us" mentality. I will remind you that nowhere in my comment I suggested to get in bed with Putin or Jinping. I am just saying we should probably not get too deeply involved with US either, though still being close friends with them.
  - elefanten 2y ago
    You presume too much about which “us” I represent here. But the posted piece is a (deeply polemic) piece about a policy intending to warn the international community about CCP influence ops. And your take is “woah, let’s look out for America though” Sorry, but that points in a silly direction for Europe. But time will tell. Yet again.
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      Some relevant reading to support this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2
pragmomm 2y ago
Europe's past foreign policy, which relied on Russia and China, is what got them into trouble now. They should be more aligned with US, which they finally realized. NATO chief urges China to stop supporting Russia's war in Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-chief-urges-china-stop-supporting-russias-war-ukraine-2024-09-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-chief-urges-china-... How China helps keep Russia's economy afloat https://www.dw.com/en/how-china-is-helping-keep-the-russian-economy-afloat/a-69072142 https://www.dw.com/en/how-china-is-helping-keep-the-russian-... Keeping America close, Russia down, and China far away: How Europeans navigate a competitive world https://ecfr.eu/publication/keeping-america-close-russia-down-and-china-far-away-how-europeans-navigate-a-competitive-world/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/keeping-america-close-russia-dow...
- benterix 2y ago
  I partly agree with you because Europe is not a monolith. The countries that decided to depend on Russia most weren't its direct neighbors. Basically all countries that share the border with Russia warned the rest that Putin can't be trusted. But all in, he managed to somehow deceive everybody, including the USA, into thinking that although it's an authoritarian state, it's somewhat civilized and we can do business with them. So with Russia, we're past that rude awakening moment. With China, it hasn't happened yet.
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    He didn't even fool Trump who introduced sanctions against Russian gas counter to German politicians wishes. What does it say about European politicians who did nothing of the sort?
- lenkite 2y ago
  No wonder EU nations like Germany are going bankrupt - all industry fleeing since Germany now pays 4x the cost of energy to the U.S.

by sph 2y ago

Saturnial22 2y ago

[flagged]

jajko 2y ago
> Europe has plenty of its own propaganda to spread. Aren't you busy locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet? Ignoring primitive racist aspects of the comments, no Europe as a whole (but lets say EU, Switzerland nor Norway don't care about this at all) doesn't have any force to speak of it can project, any clear plans for any military nor economical expansion of its influence outside its boundaries. In contrary, we are currently weak (and eventually will get steamrolled by powerplayers from the east), undecisive, busy destroying some of the powerhouses of our economies like car industry. Germany is still terrified to the core for the sins of their grandfathers so would prefer half of Europe burning than do a nanometer aggressive move, and its the strongest voice on whole bloc - just look at how little they are actually helping Ukraine and how effectively they block any bigger attempts of other states. Heck they are trying to circumvent 2% GDP yearly NATO requirement to include highways maintenance costs in it, thus Wehrmacht is a joke - ie Polish army would steamroll them all any day, poles took a hard lesson from russian atrocities done on them in the past and finance army correspondingly. Its sad to watch it, German population deserves much better leadership since competence is there. Not even digging into other big states like France with its own big issues, but at least they don't neglect military and are the only ones with nukes.
benterix 2y ago
> Aren't you busy locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet? As an European, I have problems understanding what you mean - could you clarify?
- thefounder 2y ago
  I think it’s about hate speech but the OP doesn’t know that UK!= EU. For example in the UK you may get jail time if you say a transgender girl is actually boy or whatever. See here one famous case: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146065 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146065 That being said free speech is being eroded in the EU as well but the UK is “leading” that. For example the EU tries for some time to mandate backdoors into encrypted chat applications.
  - zimpenfish 2y ago
    > you may get jail time if you say a transgender girl is actually boy or whatever. See here one famous case "J.K. Rowling will not be arrested for comments about transgender women" That's a famous (non-)case which completely disproves your assertion though.
    - tim333 2y ago
      Indeed the "locking up indigenous people for years for saying mean facts on the internet" in the UK seems basically fictional. Have there been real any cases of that? Whenever you read Americans say the awful brits locked someone up for saying nasty things you find it's actually something like saying things plus assaulting a police officer or similar.
      - zimpenfish 2y ago
        > Have there been real any cases of that? I don't think there has. There's definitely been people locked up for tweeting[1] but that was less "mean" and more "overt racism". (Before the Public Order Act 1986[2], Section 5 was amended in 2013, people were able to be charged for "insults" which was clearly ludicrous.) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/27/student-jailed-fabrice-muamba-tweets https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/27/student-jailed-fa... [2] Yet another thing to thank Thatcher for. Who, ironically, is probably a hero of the kind of people who go around saying things like "the left will lock you up for saying mean things."
      - 2y ago

throw310822 2y ago

> while remaining a stolid ally to the US nice typo

cced 2y ago
> From Middle French stolide, ‘stolid’… > calm and not emotional
- throw310822 2y ago
  You're right, I've always misinterpreted the word, it's more neutral than I thought! It comes from the Latin stolidus: “inert, dull, stupid”. So it's a strange case of a word with initially negative connotations that becomes somewhat neutral. Although Oxford Languages (Google's source) lists also "bovine", "lethargic", "torpid" and "stupid" as similar words, after "impassive", "unemotional" and "calm".

elefanten 2y ago

[flagged]

sph 2y ago
Classic "with us or against us" mentality. I will remind you that nowhere in my comment I suggested to get in bed with Putin or Jinping. I am just saying we should probably not get too deeply involved with US either, though still being close friends with them.
- elefanten 2y ago
  You presume too much about which “us” I represent here. But the posted piece is a (deeply polemic) piece about a policy intending to warn the international community about CCP influence ops. And your take is “woah, let’s look out for America though” Sorry, but that points in a silly direction for Europe. But time will tell. Yet again.
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    Some relevant reading to support this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2

pragmomm 2y ago

Europe's past foreign policy, which relied on Russia and China, is what got them into trouble now. They should be more aligned with US, which they finally realized. NATO chief urges China to stop supporting Russia's war in Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-chief-urges-china-stop-supporting-russias-war-ukraine-2024-09-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-chief-urges-china-... How China helps keep Russia's economy afloat https://www.dw.com/en/how-china-is-helping-keep-the-russian-economy-afloat/a-69072142 https://www.dw.com/en/how-china-is-helping-keep-the-russian-... Keeping America close, Russia down, and China far away: How Europeans navigate a competitive world https://ecfr.eu/publication/keeping-america-close-russia-down-and-china-far-away-how-europeans-navigate-a-competitive-world/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/keeping-america-close-russia-dow...

benterix 2y ago
I partly agree with you because Europe is not a monolith. The countries that decided to depend on Russia most weren't its direct neighbors. Basically all countries that share the border with Russia warned the rest that Putin can't be trusted. But all in, he managed to somehow deceive everybody, including the USA, into thinking that although it's an authoritarian state, it's somewhat civilized and we can do business with them. So with Russia, we're past that rude awakening moment. With China, it hasn't happened yet.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  He didn't even fool Trump who introduced sanctions against Russian gas counter to German politicians wishes. What does it say about European politicians who did nothing of the sort?
lenkite 2y ago
No wonder EU nations like Germany are going bankrupt - all industry fleeing since Germany now pays 4x the cost of energy to the U.S.