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What other things? For decades, restaurants have paid their labor with dynamic “algorithmic” wages: work during peak shifts, get more tips. Why haven’t people

by itake 2y ago

What other things? For decades, restaurants have paid their labor with dynamic “algorithmic” wages: work during peak shifts, get more tips. Why haven’t people been up in arms about how bar tenders working a Friday night near more than bartenders working a Monday afternoon?

vundercind 2y ago
The article is about subjecting workers to discriminated pay rates for reasons: that are not clear to the workers; that may not be within the power of the workers to control; that cannot be predicted in advance; and that may vary per worker rather than being offered the same to all workers at once; with that last also based on factors unknown to the workers—including, potentially, personal information about the worker or about their compensation history. The paper is explicitly not (as in: the intro outright states this is not what it’s about) traditional forms of variable pay.
- itake 2y ago
  > that are not clear to the workers; that may not be within the power of the workers to control; that cannot be predicted in advance; and that may vary per worker rather than being offered the same to all workers at once; You’re literally describing tipping. When a worker starts their shift, they do not know how much they will earn. Tips vary per worker for sexism, racism, ageism reasons, or just plain luck.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    That is similar! But this is the employer doing it, not a bunch of uncoordinated people.
    - itake 2y ago
      If 5 “employers” per day opaquely compensate an employee, then that’s ok. But if 1 employer, chooses their wage opaquely, then that’s bad. I don’t get it.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        The paper explains this (and isn’t about quite what you’re suggesting). Tens of pages of explanation, it covers it better than I will.
  - yulker 2y ago
    Most restaurants in the world operate without tips.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  But usually these things come down to patterns that people will learn. E.g. they will learn certain location at certain hours will pay more, because there's more demand vs supply, so they will adapt. It allows them the power to decide when and for what money it is worth it for them to work those hours or this location.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Those parts, maybe. Will you know they’re offing you and Bill the exact same job at the same time, and are willing to pay whichever of you takes it first, but Bill’s offer is 20% higher? Or when they’ve made you a lower-than-usual offer to test if they can start offering you lower rates in the future (but you did just get a past-due notice on your kid’s hospital bill…)?
    - itake 2y ago
      > Will you know they’re offing you and Bill the exact same job at the same time, and are willing to pay whichever of you takes it first, but Bill’s offer is 20% higher? Is this any different from than any job ever? More experience airline pilots are paid more than the less experienced for the exact same route. Two new grads from the same school may get different offers depending on how well they interviewed for the same role. Where is the problem?
DylanDmitri 2y ago
Wait staff paid directly by customers is different from payments processed opaquely by the employer. Consider if a server got paid tips based only on the number of customer smiles detected by the restaurant security cameras.
- itake 2y ago
  Tip amounts have always been about how much the customer enjoyed the service, hence the 10-25% tip ranges. Customers have opaque expectations for service and pay their server based on the server’s gender, race, and age as well as quality of service that the server doesn’t even have control over (like if the kitchen was backed up). A system counting smiles is basically what we currently have: instead of signaling with a smile, they signal with a tip amount.
  - freejazz 2y ago
    Why are you obtusely re-contextualizing everyone's responses?
    - itake 2y ago
      I feel like these articles are just "tech company = bad" without recognizing that there are thousands of really smart people trying to create an equitable system that supports the needs of the drivers, passengers, and company. 1. Good wages for drivers means more drivers. 2. More drivers means better quality of service at lower cost for passengers. 3. Low cost and high quality service for passengers means more passengers. 4. More passengers means more rides and more money spent on platform. More drivers and more passengers means more money for company. The argument that Uber/DD whatever is not incentivized to have high wages for drivers is ridiculous.
      - freejazz 2y ago
        Have you ever worked a job outside of tech?

by itake 2y ago

vundercind 2y ago

The article is about subjecting workers to discriminated pay rates for reasons: that are not clear to the workers; that may not be within the power of the workers to control; that cannot be predicted in advance; and that may vary per worker rather than being offered the same to all workers at once; with that last also based on factors unknown to the workers—including, potentially, personal information about the worker or about their compensation history. The paper is explicitly not (as in: the intro outright states this is not what it’s about) traditional forms of variable pay.

itake 2y ago
> that are not clear to the workers; that may not be within the power of the workers to control; that cannot be predicted in advance; and that may vary per worker rather than being offered the same to all workers at once; You’re literally describing tipping. When a worker starts their shift, they do not know how much they will earn. Tips vary per worker for sexism, racism, ageism reasons, or just plain luck.
- vundercind 2y ago
  That is similar! But this is the employer doing it, not a bunch of uncoordinated people.
  - itake 2y ago
    If 5 “employers” per day opaquely compensate an employee, then that’s ok. But if 1 employer, chooses their wage opaquely, then that’s bad. I don’t get it.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      The paper explains this (and isn’t about quite what you’re suggesting). Tens of pages of explanation, it covers it better than I will.
- yulker 2y ago
  Most restaurants in the world operate without tips.
mewpmewp2 2y ago
But usually these things come down to patterns that people will learn. E.g. they will learn certain location at certain hours will pay more, because there's more demand vs supply, so they will adapt. It allows them the power to decide when and for what money it is worth it for them to work those hours or this location.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Those parts, maybe. Will you know they’re offing you and Bill the exact same job at the same time, and are willing to pay whichever of you takes it first, but Bill’s offer is 20% higher? Or when they’ve made you a lower-than-usual offer to test if they can start offering you lower rates in the future (but you did just get a past-due notice on your kid’s hospital bill…)?
  - itake 2y ago
    > Will you know they’re offing you and Bill the exact same job at the same time, and are willing to pay whichever of you takes it first, but Bill’s offer is 20% higher? Is this any different from than any job ever? More experience airline pilots are paid more than the less experienced for the exact same route. Two new grads from the same school may get different offers depending on how well they interviewed for the same role. Where is the problem?

DylanDmitri 2y ago

Wait staff paid directly by customers is different from payments processed opaquely by the employer. Consider if a server got paid tips based only on the number of customer smiles detected by the restaurant security cameras.

itake 2y ago
Tip amounts have always been about how much the customer enjoyed the service, hence the 10-25% tip ranges. Customers have opaque expectations for service and pay their server based on the server’s gender, race, and age as well as quality of service that the server doesn’t even have control over (like if the kitchen was backed up). A system counting smiles is basically what we currently have: instead of signaling with a smile, they signal with a tip amount.
- freejazz 2y ago
  Why are you obtusely re-contextualizing everyone's responses?
  - itake 2y ago
    I feel like these articles are just "tech company = bad" without recognizing that there are thousands of really smart people trying to create an equitable system that supports the needs of the drivers, passengers, and company. 1. Good wages for drivers means more drivers. 2. More drivers means better quality of service at lower cost for passengers. 3. Low cost and high quality service for passengers means more passengers. 4. More passengers means more rides and more money spent on platform. More drivers and more passengers means more money for company. The argument that Uber/DD whatever is not incentivized to have high wages for drivers is ridiculous.
    - freejazz 2y ago
      Have you ever worked a job outside of tech?