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...most developers of the kind of apps Windows 8 needs don’t use Windows. The exception to this would be games developers, and I do think games are an importan

...most developers of the kind of apps Windows 8 needs don’t use Windows. The exception to this would be games developers, and I do think games are an important part of a mobile app store ecosystem. Looking outside of mobile games, the majority of games are developed using Windows and Visual Studio. With Xbox Live Microsoft already has an established online gaming service. Microsoft has some advantages that they haven't made use of in this niche.

marshray 14y ago
Sure, but there are two types of game developers: those using high-performance Win32 native code game engines and everyone else. Everyone else is mostly using Java or Flash or something specific to iOS or Android. So Microsoft has shut out the Win32 native code developers from the WP7 and mobile platforms by more or less requiring all apps be developed according to Metro specifications. All the other developers will need to be given a reason to rewrite their app for managed code (i.e. C#) for Metro. The only real reason for professionals to undertake such a task is potential revenue, which isn't there until the users materialize.
- sirclueless 14y ago
  Everyone else is mostly using Java or Flash or something specific to iOS or Android. That's not true, there's a large ecosystem of game developers writing in managed C#, in the form of the Xbox Live Indie Game market. It shouldn't be difficult to port those to Metro, assuming Microsoft doesn't shoot themselves in the foot somehow. The quality is debatable, but there are over 2,500 indie games according to http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Games/XboxIndieGames http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Games/XboxIndieGames. I've heard some success stories.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    As far as I know, XNA is not moving to Metro Win8. But there are some alternatives (SharpDX, SlimDX). Most serious games are C++/DirectX anyways, so they should port over to Metro Win8 very easily (they won't have to use much WinRT).
glhaynes 14y ago
Do we know yet whether OpenGL ES is going to be supported on Windows Phone 8 or only DirectX?
- marshray 14y ago
  There's no information that it will be. Considering that native code isn't allowed it's unlikely that any form of OpenGL will be allowed either. Unless Microsoft sees how many app developers they've lost with this policy and has a change of heart.
  - contextfree 14y ago
    Native code is supported on WP8 (it wasn't supported on WP7 because they were afraid it would make it harder to port to the NT kernel).
    - marshray 14y ago
      OK so there's compilation to native code, but no Win32. This article http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/windows-nt-coming-to-phones-with-windows-phone-8/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/windows-nt-coming-to-... says explicitly "OpenGL ES, the 3D API used by iOS, won't be included, and so 3D applications will have to be rewritten to use Direct3D."
      - contextfree 14y ago
        I think there might actually be a subset of Win32 available (the same subset exposed to Windows 8 Metro style apps, or a further subset of that subset), they've not made any of this clear yet though. You are right that the lack of OGLES support will probably continue to be off-putting to many mobile developers.
        marshray 14y ago
        I'm sympathetic that they don't have all their decisions made yet, but as a developer it's a bit off-putting that they're asking everyone to develop for this platform for which there will be all these new limitations and restrictions but they won't say what they are. It's really difficult to answer basic questions like "do apps for Metro/WP8/WinRT/Windows RT have to be managed code?" Typically the information is provided like "Use Visual Studio 2012 to code in C++, C#, or VB ..."

marshray 14y ago

Sure, but there are two types of game developers: those using high-performance Win32 native code game engines and everyone else. Everyone else is mostly using Java or Flash or something specific to iOS or Android. So Microsoft has shut out the Win32 native code developers from the WP7 and mobile platforms by more or less requiring all apps be developed according to Metro specifications. All the other developers will need to be given a reason to rewrite their app for managed code (i.e. C#) for Metro. The only real reason for professionals to undertake such a task is potential revenue, which isn't there until the users materialize.

sirclueless 14y ago
Everyone else is mostly using Java or Flash or something specific to iOS or Android. That's not true, there's a large ecosystem of game developers writing in managed C#, in the form of the Xbox Live Indie Game market. It shouldn't be difficult to port those to Metro, assuming Microsoft doesn't shoot themselves in the foot somehow. The quality is debatable, but there are over 2,500 indie games according to http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Games/XboxIndieGames http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Games/XboxIndieGames. I've heard some success stories.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  As far as I know, XNA is not moving to Metro Win8. But there are some alternatives (SharpDX, SlimDX). Most serious games are C++/DirectX anyways, so they should port over to Metro Win8 very easily (they won't have to use much WinRT).

glhaynes 14y ago

Do we know yet whether OpenGL ES is going to be supported on Windows Phone 8 or only DirectX?

marshray 14y ago
There's no information that it will be. Considering that native code isn't allowed it's unlikely that any form of OpenGL will be allowed either. Unless Microsoft sees how many app developers they've lost with this policy and has a change of heart.
- contextfree 14y ago
  Native code is supported on WP8 (it wasn't supported on WP7 because they were afraid it would make it harder to port to the NT kernel).
  - marshray 14y ago
    OK so there's compilation to native code, but no Win32. This article http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/windows-nt-coming-to-phones-with-windows-phone-8/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/windows-nt-coming-to-... says explicitly "OpenGL ES, the 3D API used by iOS, won't be included, and so 3D applications will have to be rewritten to use Direct3D."
    - contextfree 14y ago
      I think there might actually be a subset of Win32 available (the same subset exposed to Windows 8 Metro style apps, or a further subset of that subset), they've not made any of this clear yet though. You are right that the lack of OGLES support will probably continue to be off-putting to many mobile developers.
      - marshray 14y ago
        I'm sympathetic that they don't have all their decisions made yet, but as a developer it's a bit off-putting that they're asking everyone to develop for this platform for which there will be all these new limitations and restrictions but they won't say what they are. It's really difficult to answer basic questions like "do apps for Metro/WP8/WinRT/Windows RT have to be managed code?" Typically the information is provided like "Use Visual Studio 2012 to code in C++, C#, or VB ..."