4 ms·

Good. We should do more to tailor fines to income to the extent feasible. Otherwise it's just a hardship for the poor and an inconvenience fee for the rich.

by jrm4 2y ago

yohannparis 2y ago
Instead of income, it should be something else, because a lot of wealthy people do not have incomes.
- bortsampson 2y ago
  [dead]
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Good point. You still want to punish, despite not having income. Perhaps a % of their assets should be put into government trust which is realised when they liquidate?
_bin_ 2y ago
No, not good. $116k is a ridiculous fine for tailgating. Fines should be at least partially related to the damage or potential damage inflicted on the public. I'd be fine with sublinear scaling but straightline increasing a fine ad infinitum is ridiculous. And/or the fine should be cut for the poor. I think there's a big difference between what people say (the poor shouldn't be massively overburdened by a traffic fine, which most people would support), and what many advocates of these policies are actually motivated by (make the rich pay reeeee), which is silly schadenfreude I won't support.
- fwip 2y ago
  $116K is far less than the potential damage to life and property that can be caused by a car crash.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    downvoters haven't gone car shopping lately
- indoordin0saur 2y ago
  I'll add that it could create some really perverse incentives. Small town cops encouraged to pull over any newer or more expensive car and ignoring ones that look janky.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    That would be the case in systems where the fines go to the local police force. I don’t know the prevalence, but in the countries where I’ve lived, the fines go to the central government, so local cops don’t have this (completely perverse, as you say) incentive. I would argue that fixing that is important, even without income-based fines. Particularly if you have things like civil forfeiture (which also needs some fixing and really sounds like something that belongs in a banana republic).
    - indoordin0saur 2y ago
      In the US there are speed traps in small towns already where it's known that it is a major source of government income. To be somewhat fair, people often speed through these small towns they'll never see or think about again and cause issues.
      - andrewaylett 2y ago
        Outside the US, it's somewhat less common for units of government with the power to levy fines to be anywhere near that small. In the UK, "safety camera" income goes to national (Westminster, Scottish, NI) government, not local government. And to the general fund, not to any road- or policing-specific department.
  - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
    If they drove properly, that wouldn’t be a problem.
    - indoordin0saur 2y ago
      Don't misunderstand me, I'm not going to shed any tears for a Ferrari driver who has to pay a $50k fine for going 30 miles over the speed limit. It would just make society strange if this is how we enforced the laws.
- mlyle 2y ago
  I think there's a crucial difference here. If we want to prohibit an activity, having a fine that's the same in dollars is not great because of the whole inconvenience-fee thing. If the purpose of the fine is punishment and deterrence it is ineffective. If we want to have less of an activity but reach a quantity where there's a equilibrium between the social costs and social benefits for the activity, then that's really a tax. And it should be uniform and not vary based on income. Which is tailgating?
- kergonath 2y ago
  > I'd be fine with sublinear scaling but straightline increasing a fine ad infinitum is ridiculous. What is actually properly ridiculous is that some people get enough money that a linear fine seems ridiculous. Income distribution is completely out of whack.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  Tailgating is ridiculous and can kill people. I experience that every day where I live and it’s a psychological nightmare. I say we should fine them and remove their license, it’s the only thing those morons understand.
- topspin 2y ago
  Aren't "many advocates" only seeking to make penalties for unsafe behavior felt? Wealthy people can and do routinely scoff at -- for them -- trivial costs, abusing their wealth until someone ends up injured or killed, and then employ a team of lawyers to skate on that as well. I bet the f*cker stops now.

Good. We should do more to tailor fines to income to the extent feasible. Otherwise it's just a hardship for the poor and an inconvenience fee for the rich.

by jrm4 2y ago

Good. We should do more to tailor fines to income to the extent feasible. Otherwise it's just a hardship for the poor and an inconvenience fee for the rich.

yohannparis 2y ago

Instead of income, it should be something else, because a lot of wealthy people do not have incomes.

bortsampson 2y ago
[dead]
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Good point. You still want to punish, despite not having income. Perhaps a % of their assets should be put into government trust which is realised when they liquidate?

_bin_ 2y ago

No, not good. $116k is a ridiculous fine for tailgating. Fines should be at least partially related to the damage or potential damage inflicted on the public. I'd be fine with sublinear scaling but straightline increasing a fine ad infinitum is ridiculous. And/or the fine should be cut for the poor. I think there's a big difference between what people say (the poor shouldn't be massively overburdened by a traffic fine, which most people would support), and what many advocates of these policies are actually motivated by (make the rich pay reeeee), which is silly schadenfreude I won't support.

fwip 2y ago
$116K is far less than the potential damage to life and property that can be caused by a car crash.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  downvoters haven't gone car shopping lately
indoordin0saur 2y ago
I'll add that it could create some really perverse incentives. Small town cops encouraged to pull over any newer or more expensive car and ignoring ones that look janky.
- kergonath 2y ago
  That would be the case in systems where the fines go to the local police force. I don’t know the prevalence, but in the countries where I’ve lived, the fines go to the central government, so local cops don’t have this (completely perverse, as you say) incentive. I would argue that fixing that is important, even without income-based fines. Particularly if you have things like civil forfeiture (which also needs some fixing and really sounds like something that belongs in a banana republic).
  - indoordin0saur 2y ago
    In the US there are speed traps in small towns already where it's known that it is a major source of government income. To be somewhat fair, people often speed through these small towns they'll never see or think about again and cause issues.
    - andrewaylett 2y ago
      Outside the US, it's somewhat less common for units of government with the power to levy fines to be anywhere near that small. In the UK, "safety camera" income goes to national (Westminster, Scottish, NI) government, not local government. And to the general fund, not to any road- or policing-specific department.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  If they drove properly, that wouldn’t be a problem.
  - indoordin0saur 2y ago
    Don't misunderstand me, I'm not going to shed any tears for a Ferrari driver who has to pay a $50k fine for going 30 miles over the speed limit. It would just make society strange if this is how we enforced the laws.
mlyle 2y ago
I think there's a crucial difference here. If we want to prohibit an activity, having a fine that's the same in dollars is not great because of the whole inconvenience-fee thing. If the purpose of the fine is punishment and deterrence it is ineffective. If we want to have less of an activity but reach a quantity where there's a equilibrium between the social costs and social benefits for the activity, then that's really a tax. And it should be uniform and not vary based on income. Which is tailgating?
kergonath 2y ago
> I'd be fine with sublinear scaling but straightline increasing a fine ad infinitum is ridiculous. What is actually properly ridiculous is that some people get enough money that a linear fine seems ridiculous. Income distribution is completely out of whack.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
Tailgating is ridiculous and can kill people. I experience that every day where I live and it’s a psychological nightmare. I say we should fine them and remove their license, it’s the only thing those morons understand.
topspin 2y ago
Aren't "many advocates" only seeking to make penalties for unsafe behavior felt? Wealthy people can and do routinely scoff at -- for them -- trivial costs, abusing their wealth until someone ends up injured or killed, and then employ a team of lawyers to skate on that as well. I bet the f*cker stops now.