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> If Ford starts snooping on our in-car conversations and injecting ads into our Spotify streams, we can just refuse to buy Fords. In practice often we can’t -

by thih9 2y ago

> If Ford starts snooping on our in-car conversations and injecting ads into our Spotify streams, we can just refuse to buy Fords. In practice often we can’t - people often prefer worse products and with user hostile features as long as they’re cheaper.

recursive 2y ago
Who is Ford to deny people what they prefer?
- rectang 2y ago
  It's hard to buy a TV today that isn't "smart", i.e. spying on you. There's more of a barrier to entry for automobile manufacturing than for TV manufacturing, so what goes for TVs goes double for cars.
- kelseyfrog 2y ago
  Because Hayek's individual choice is an illusion. It's a failed idea. If you're a parent, you know that choice structuring is a powerful tool in coercing children to do what you want. "Do you want to do your homework before or after lunch?" isn't a choice to do one's homework or not. That decision has been made for the child. We should not be so arrogant to assume that we're beyond that. Individual choice in the context of the market place simply isn't. Too much money is on the line. Our choices are structured for us and we are their children.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Who is Ford to challenge a central tenet of capitalism that underpins the economy of the country where its headquartered?
    - kelseyfrog 2y ago
      No one likes sacrificing to Moloch, but what else can we do? There's no one to say no.
      - recursive 2y ago
        We're all "free" to say no, to the extent that free will exists, as disputed elsewhere in this thread. But just don't count on the high council of Molochianism to be the one to do it.
        kelseyfrog 2y ago
        There's no alternative economic systems. They've all been exterminated. There's no one else giving out choices. There is only Moloch. That's what I mean by choice. There isn't
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jajko 2y ago
There is very very little actual innovation in the cars - previous generation can still work 10-15 years with good maintenance. Not long term solution, I know, and ie eco regulations will push them away eventually, but this is now a wild period when we are literally fucked by car manufacturers, and there is not yet clear legal framework on how to deal with it. There will be brutal fines, at least in EU, but thats at least 5 years down the line. TBH for an European it may be actually beneficial to have Chinese car - I couldn't care less if chinese have tons of my driving data, I don't think they will sell it so easily elsewhere (but who knows). Suffice to say I am keeping my pretty dumb BMW F11 family wagon (2014) for a long time unless it breaks apart.
- dylan604 2y ago
  > and ie eco regulations will push them away eventually Anything over 25 years can be registered as a classic car which grandfathers in any of those eco regulations. Things like catalytic converters, shoulder seat belts, etc are not required on a classic car. Telling someone they are no longer allowed to driver their '69 Camero will probably be met with a lot of hostility.
sitkack 2y ago
And they will be cheaper if they can reduce the price of the car with ads (which they will more than makeup for on the backside). We need a no corporate eves dropping law, either directly or inferred. I still don't understand why corporations doing adversarial sigint against customers isn't running afoul of wiretapping laws.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  The data is also available to governments, so I doubt they'll ban it.
- soco 2y ago
  But do you actually believe in that reduction? I can currently see the reverse trend, streaming services injecting ads in paid services.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    I don't believe in it, they will have the option to reduce prices if they need to, but all of these companies will fight tooth and nail to not have the enshittification priced in, that is where they make the most profit. But they will use it as a weapon against the competition, driving all suppliers to the same behavior. BMW will absolutely try again with seat subscriptions.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >I don't believe in it, they will have the option to reduce prices if they need to, but all of these companies will fight tooth and nail to not have the enshittification priced in, that is where they make the most profit. ??? There's no meaningful difference between a $5k discount for opting into ads and a $5k premium to opt out of ads.
      - sitkack 2y ago
        Who said you would able to opt out? And the difference is 10k. Prices will stay the same or increase AND have ads and data exfil.

by thih9 2y ago

recursive 2y ago

Who is Ford to deny people what they prefer?

rectang 2y ago
It's hard to buy a TV today that isn't "smart", i.e. spying on you. There's more of a barrier to entry for automobile manufacturing than for TV manufacturing, so what goes for TVs goes double for cars.
kelseyfrog 2y ago
Because Hayek's individual choice is an illusion. It's a failed idea. If you're a parent, you know that choice structuring is a powerful tool in coercing children to do what you want. "Do you want to do your homework before or after lunch?" isn't a choice to do one's homework or not. That decision has been made for the child. We should not be so arrogant to assume that we're beyond that. Individual choice in the context of the market place simply isn't. Too much money is on the line. Our choices are structured for us and we are their children.
- recursive 2y ago
  Who is Ford to challenge a central tenet of capitalism that underpins the economy of the country where its headquartered?
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    No one likes sacrificing to Moloch, but what else can we do? There's no one to say no.
    - recursive 2y ago
      We're all "free" to say no, to the extent that free will exists, as disputed elsewhere in this thread. But just don't count on the high council of Molochianism to be the one to do it.
      - kelseyfrog 2y ago
        There's no alternative economic systems. They've all been exterminated. There's no one else giving out choices. There is only Moloch. That's what I mean by choice. There isn't

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jajko 2y ago

There is very very little actual innovation in the cars - previous generation can still work 10-15 years with good maintenance. Not long term solution, I know, and ie eco regulations will push them away eventually, but this is now a wild period when we are literally fucked by car manufacturers, and there is not yet clear legal framework on how to deal with it. There will be brutal fines, at least in EU, but thats at least 5 years down the line. TBH for an European it may be actually beneficial to have Chinese car - I couldn't care less if chinese have tons of my driving data, I don't think they will sell it so easily elsewhere (but who knows). Suffice to say I am keeping my pretty dumb BMW F11 family wagon (2014) for a long time unless it breaks apart.

dylan604 2y ago
> and ie eco regulations will push them away eventually Anything over 25 years can be registered as a classic car which grandfathers in any of those eco regulations. Things like catalytic converters, shoulder seat belts, etc are not required on a classic car. Telling someone they are no longer allowed to driver their '69 Camero will probably be met with a lot of hostility.

sitkack 2y ago

And they will be cheaper if they can reduce the price of the car with ads (which they will more than makeup for on the backside). We need a no corporate eves dropping law, either directly or inferred. I still don't understand why corporations doing adversarial sigint against customers isn't running afoul of wiretapping laws.

BurningFrog 2y ago
The data is also available to governments, so I doubt they'll ban it.
soco 2y ago
But do you actually believe in that reduction? I can currently see the reverse trend, streaming services injecting ads in paid services.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I don't believe in it, they will have the option to reduce prices if they need to, but all of these companies will fight tooth and nail to not have the enshittification priced in, that is where they make the most profit. But they will use it as a weapon against the competition, driving all suppliers to the same behavior. BMW will absolutely try again with seat subscriptions.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >I don't believe in it, they will have the option to reduce prices if they need to, but all of these companies will fight tooth and nail to not have the enshittification priced in, that is where they make the most profit. ??? There's no meaningful difference between a $5k discount for opting into ads and a $5k premium to opt out of ads.
    - sitkack 2y ago
      Who said you would able to opt out? And the difference is 10k. Prices will stay the same or increase AND have ads and data exfil.