5 ms·

Good. Not because I particularly dilike Apple or big US tech firms (I have a whole bunch of Apple stuff right here), but because Ireland has been able to under

by Nursie 2y ago

Good. Not because I particularly dilike Apple or big US tech firms (I have a whole bunch of Apple stuff right here), but because Ireland has been able to undermine the tax regime of the whole EU, by giving these sweetheart tax deals to big firms, who can then run their entire EU business from there. This gives an unfair tax advantage to the multinationals over homegrown EU companies, skewing the market. Is it Apple's 'fault'? That's not really the interesting question here, IMHO.

Etheryte 2y ago
Yeah, agreed, Apple is simply doing what any corporation does, trying to do business as profitably as possible. The only tar bucket you should be having handy is for Ireland for trying to screw over the whole rest of EU.
- xbmcuser 2y ago
  Why do you give Apple the leeway to do what a company has to and not Ireland to do what a country has to succeed that's very hypocritical of you.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    Because Ireland has joined the EU and knowingly chosen to participate in treaties pertaining to the shared market. If Ireland wanted to leave the EU then it would be free to do so, then it can cut Apple all the tax breaks it wants. However as is, Ireland is trying to please two masters at the same time and the court cases seem pretty clear about how that is going for them.
    - xbmcuser 2y ago
      Apple willingly sold in the eu then found loopholes to save on tax. They created shell corporratioms to save on tax yeah Apple is correct and Ireland is only one in the wrong.
  - whacko_quacko 2y ago
    It's not, because Ireland chose to be part of the EU which its actions are undermining. Also, we accept the fact that in capitalism companies have the goal to maximize profit, but the purpose of a country is not to maximize tax income compared to others
    - RickarySanchez 2y ago
      Yeah the purpose of a country is to maximize the opportunity of its citizens which is exactly what Ireland is doing. They're not trying to maximize tax income otherwise they would have a higher rate
      - jajko 2y ago
        Ireland is part of much bigger bloc, and milking it hard since Apple couldn't care less about some irrelevant tiny island nation. The only interesting part of it, it can 'hack' into EU via dodgy tax deals that circumvent EU policies. Not 100% sure if its illegal, but its highly amoral, no questions there. Here in Europe we don't like that, money is not above else, greed is not good. The view on this topic boils down largely where your opinion on above stands. At the end, Apple is just another greedy amoral corporation, just like the rest. Which is fine on its own, but would be nice if some folks would be less fanatical about that brand and got a bit more... balanced view on reality.
        piltdownman 2y ago
        And what part of Germany or the Benelux do you hail from? Also "money is not above else, greed is not good" is absolutely not the policy of the major economic powers in the European Continent. The 2008 banking crisis and the subsequent austerity imposed on Ireland by the IMF as a consequence of bailing out unsecured bondholder in European Banks in order to stop a contagion effect completely refutes that notion.
        RickarySanchez 2y ago
        Absolute nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff and calling Ireland an irrelevant nation is an incredibly ignorant statement to label a country that vastly punches above its weight in science, technology, and research. Here in Europe competition is good and you have some countries that don't like losing out.
- RickarySanchez 2y ago
  Well they're not trying to screw over the rest of Europe. They're just gaining a competitive advantage by offering favorable deals. Its something that countries have been doing for much of their existence. To claim their screwing over the rest of Europe is just anti-competitive nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    Yeah no, there's a very big difference between being a country all by itself and being a part of the EU. If you want to be in the EU, you have to play by its rules, that's a part of the deal. You can't only get the upsides of the shared market, but not follow the rest of the rulebook that actually make the whole thing work.
  - fransje26 2y ago
    > The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully Well, that's absolutely not orthogonal to the "screwing over Europe" statement. That simply makes two countries trying to gain an unfair competitive advantage. Nicely hypocritical from the Netherlands by the way, as they are always the ones on their high horses complaining about the financial laxness of the southern and eastern European countries, while at the same time draining them of tax revenues through such constructs.
    - Woeps 2y ago
      Regarding the Netherlands, It looked like they where working and making good progress of dismantling this system. But in the end it was all a façade and feet dragging... Now I just hope that with our current government it wont get worse. But hey, we voted for these muppets. So if the EU again fines us we deserve it.
      - fransje26 2y ago
        > Now I just hope that with our current government it wont get worse. Hope dies last! Let's see how long the current government holds. And hope the replacement would be better...
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Yes, every company will engage in tax avoidance if they think they can get away with it. Good that Apple was punished for it. It should happen more often.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
matthewmorgan 2y ago
What about Luxembourg?
- Yizahi 2y ago
  All offshores should be either forced to increase min taxes, regulation and financial transparency (i.e. cease being offshores), or should be expelled from everywhere and sanctioned. I wonder how people aren't protesting this crap, which allows to directly steal their money. But whatever, I guess scary migrants working for slave wage are more important for people that multinational megacorps, as long as they are churning shiny new iphones and stuff.
  - zoobab 2y ago
    Biden pushed other countries to adopt a minimum corporate tax of 15%, but those taxi breaks on patent royalties might be another loophole. Anyone to clarify the link between the 2?
- Y-bar 2y ago
  Which secret sweetheart deals does Luxembourg have? The secrecy and exclusivity were central to the judgement. The EU requires a level playing field for all companies, which is why individual governments striking secret tax deals not available to all companies are seen as an illegal thing. I bet if Ireland had opened the same tax deal they did to Apple, to all companies this would not even have been a matter for the courts.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Isn't the EU specifically set up to allow competition between states on tax grounds?
    - Y-bar 2y ago
      Yes. The problem was not about the tax level, nor the inter-state competition. The problem was that it was _not_ a free and fair competition. The tax deal was not offered to all companies. Ireland secretly did this to only select companies, and it therefore crossed the threshold into [secret and illegal] state aid.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
Surely an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. I understand that the issue here is the nature of the deal with a specific company, but the EU does not want member states to have too much leeway to cut taxes in any case. They have set minima for corporation tax and VAT, for instance. Ultimately this is a question of competitive advantage and of ways for small, peripheric countries to survive and prosper. If everything was the same everywhere in the EU, then why would companies pick Ireland? The US have "domestic tax-heavens" and the country is not falling apart... The EU isn't at risk, either, including because of the huge VAT levels compared to corporation tax. Effectively, I think this boils down to powerful EU states who want to have high taxes and don't want others to undercut them. It's odd that the view here, at least among Europeans, seems to be that the higher the taxes the better when the issue is obviously much more complex.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  The US is a country, though.
- anonymous344 2y ago
  us is falling apart did u see how much they printed usd? the pay gap, vanishing middle-class, stealing resources from all over planet..
- riffraff 2y ago
  > Surely an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. yeah but "negotiate" is not how this is supposed to be, because it creates a non-level playing field. If I planned to move my single-person enterprise to Ireland I should be able to get the same deal as Apple did without having friends in the government. One can argue that countries should be able to do this, but EU countries have agreed not to do it.
- seydor 2y ago
  > an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. Probably not, because their home country would go after them / make Ireland liable. These kinds of schemes usually work across jurisdictions
nonrandomstring 2y ago
Good. Because I do particularly dislike big US tech firms who don't pay their taxes and have absolutely no problem owning that emotional capital. This corrects an injustice and seeing that happen makes me feel better, without any need to rationalise or appeal to economics. btw: I also agree with your economic reasoning
- nonrandomstring 2y ago
  Quite stark to note the precise moment at which Americans came online. Idea: Someone could do an interesting cultural sentiment analysis by watching how certain comments rise and fall in popularity as the planet rotates.

by Nursie 2y ago

Etheryte 2y ago

Yeah, agreed, Apple is simply doing what any corporation does, trying to do business as profitably as possible. The only tar bucket you should be having handy is for Ireland for trying to screw over the whole rest of EU.

xbmcuser 2y ago
Why do you give Apple the leeway to do what a company has to and not Ireland to do what a country has to succeed that's very hypocritical of you.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Because Ireland has joined the EU and knowingly chosen to participate in treaties pertaining to the shared market. If Ireland wanted to leave the EU then it would be free to do so, then it can cut Apple all the tax breaks it wants. However as is, Ireland is trying to please two masters at the same time and the court cases seem pretty clear about how that is going for them.
  - xbmcuser 2y ago
    Apple willingly sold in the eu then found loopholes to save on tax. They created shell corporratioms to save on tax yeah Apple is correct and Ireland is only one in the wrong.
- whacko_quacko 2y ago
  It's not, because Ireland chose to be part of the EU which its actions are undermining. Also, we accept the fact that in capitalism companies have the goal to maximize profit, but the purpose of a country is not to maximize tax income compared to others
  - RickarySanchez 2y ago
    Yeah the purpose of a country is to maximize the opportunity of its citizens which is exactly what Ireland is doing. They're not trying to maximize tax income otherwise they would have a higher rate
    - jajko 2y ago
      Ireland is part of much bigger bloc, and milking it hard since Apple couldn't care less about some irrelevant tiny island nation. The only interesting part of it, it can 'hack' into EU via dodgy tax deals that circumvent EU policies. Not 100% sure if its illegal, but its highly amoral, no questions there. Here in Europe we don't like that, money is not above else, greed is not good. The view on this topic boils down largely where your opinion on above stands. At the end, Apple is just another greedy amoral corporation, just like the rest. Which is fine on its own, but would be nice if some folks would be less fanatical about that brand and got a bit more... balanced view on reality.
      - piltdownman 2y ago
        And what part of Germany or the Benelux do you hail from? Also "money is not above else, greed is not good" is absolutely not the policy of the major economic powers in the European Continent. The 2008 banking crisis and the subsequent austerity imposed on Ireland by the IMF as a consequence of bailing out unsecured bondholder in European Banks in order to stop a contagion effect completely refutes that notion.
      - RickarySanchez 2y ago
        Absolute nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff and calling Ireland an irrelevant nation is an incredibly ignorant statement to label a country that vastly punches above its weight in science, technology, and research. Here in Europe competition is good and you have some countries that don't like losing out.
RickarySanchez 2y ago
Well they're not trying to screw over the rest of Europe. They're just gaining a competitive advantage by offering favorable deals. Its something that countries have been doing for much of their existence. To claim their screwing over the rest of Europe is just anti-competitive nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Yeah no, there's a very big difference between being a country all by itself and being a part of the EU. If you want to be in the EU, you have to play by its rules, that's a part of the deal. You can't only get the upsides of the shared market, but not follow the rest of the rulebook that actually make the whole thing work.
- fransje26 2y ago
  > The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully Well, that's absolutely not orthogonal to the "screwing over Europe" statement. That simply makes two countries trying to gain an unfair competitive advantage. Nicely hypocritical from the Netherlands by the way, as they are always the ones on their high horses complaining about the financial laxness of the southern and eastern European countries, while at the same time draining them of tax revenues through such constructs.
  - Woeps 2y ago
    Regarding the Netherlands, It looked like they where working and making good progress of dismantling this system. But in the end it was all a façade and feet dragging... Now I just hope that with our current government it wont get worse. But hey, we voted for these muppets. So if the EU again fines us we deserve it.
    - fransje26 2y ago
      > Now I just hope that with our current government it wont get worse. Hope dies last! Let's see how long the current government holds. And hope the replacement would be better...
surgical_fire 2y ago
Yes, every company will engage in tax avoidance if they think they can get away with it. Good that Apple was punished for it. It should happen more often.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

matthewmorgan 2y ago

What about Luxembourg?

Yizahi 2y ago
All offshores should be either forced to increase min taxes, regulation and financial transparency (i.e. cease being offshores), or should be expelled from everywhere and sanctioned. I wonder how people aren't protesting this crap, which allows to directly steal their money. But whatever, I guess scary migrants working for slave wage are more important for people that multinational megacorps, as long as they are churning shiny new iphones and stuff.
- zoobab 2y ago
  Biden pushed other countries to adopt a minimum corporate tax of 15%, but those taxi breaks on patent royalties might be another loophole. Anyone to clarify the link between the 2?
Y-bar 2y ago
Which secret sweetheart deals does Luxembourg have? The secrecy and exclusivity were central to the judgement. The EU requires a level playing field for all companies, which is why individual governments striking secret tax deals not available to all companies are seen as an illegal thing. I bet if Ireland had opened the same tax deal they did to Apple, to all companies this would not even have been a matter for the courts.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Isn't the EU specifically set up to allow competition between states on tax grounds?
  - Y-bar 2y ago
    Yes. The problem was not about the tax level, nor the inter-state competition. The problem was that it was _not_ a free and fair competition. The tax deal was not offered to all companies. Ireland secretly did this to only select companies, and it therefore crossed the threshold into [secret and illegal] state aid.

mytailorisrich 2y ago

Surely an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. I understand that the issue here is the nature of the deal with a specific company, but the EU does not want member states to have too much leeway to cut taxes in any case. They have set minima for corporation tax and VAT, for instance. Ultimately this is a question of competitive advantage and of ways for small, peripheric countries to survive and prosper. If everything was the same everywhere in the EU, then why would companies pick Ireland? The US have "domestic tax-heavens" and the country is not falling apart... The EU isn't at risk, either, including because of the huge VAT levels compared to corporation tax. Effectively, I think this boils down to powerful EU states who want to have high taxes and don't want others to undercut them. It's odd that the view here, at least among Europeans, seems to be that the higher the taxes the better when the issue is obviously much more complex.

actionfromafar 2y ago
The US is a country, though.
anonymous344 2y ago
us is falling apart did u see how much they printed usd? the pay gap, vanishing middle-class, stealing resources from all over planet..
riffraff 2y ago
> Surely an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. yeah but "negotiate" is not how this is supposed to be, because it creates a non-level playing field. If I planned to move my single-person enterprise to Ireland I should be able to get the same deal as Apple did without having friends in the government. One can argue that countries should be able to do this, but EU countries have agreed not to do it.
seydor 2y ago
> an EU company, if big enough, could have moved to Ireland and negotiated a similar deal. Probably not, because their home country would go after them / make Ireland liable. These kinds of schemes usually work across jurisdictions

nonrandomstring 2y ago

Good. Because I do particularly dislike big US tech firms who don't pay their taxes and have absolutely no problem owning that emotional capital. This corrects an injustice and seeing that happen makes me feel better, without any need to rationalise or appeal to economics. btw: I also agree with your economic reasoning

nonrandomstring 2y ago
Quite stark to note the precise moment at which Americans came online. Idea: Someone could do an interesting cultural sentiment analysis by watching how certain comments rise and fall in popularity as the planet rotates.