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They have to or China's battery and car makers will crush Japan's auto industry. Look at the numbers outside the US. Only 10% of US new cars are electric, but

They have to or China's battery and car makers will crush Japan's auto industry. Look at the numbers outside the US. Only 10% of US new cars are electric, but worldwide, 20% are. Most of those are from China, and they're cheap.

xbmcuser 2y ago
China has already hit 50%+ new sales of plugin electric and plugin hybrid. The sticker price of electric cars has almost reached parity with ice even without any kind of subsidy then fuel savings are an additional bonus. Japan and other legacy car manufacturers have an extremely limited time left to catch up but they and their governments dragging their feet trying to protect an industry that is about to crash.
- codedokode 2y ago
  This is an interesting note because American electric cars (like Tesla) are super expensive.
  - Animats 2y ago
    This is a huge problem. US automakers treated electric cars as a premium product. This is very clear for vehicles available in both electric and IC.[1] That premium has been decreasing rapidly. There's now a glut of used Teslas. In the commercial sector, though, the Ford Transit is slightly cheaper in electric than in IC.[2] [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-lightning https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-lightning [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit
ryuno_k 2y ago
And cheap quality.
- cced 2y ago
  I really don’t get the purpose of a comment like this, who is this for? Have you ridden in a Chinese EV? They don’t “feel” cheap. This type of rhetoric is pretty much the reason other companies are lagging behind. After all, why compete with a “cheap” competitor? There may have been a time when quality of Chinese vehicles was questionable but I’m not sure that’s still the case. If it weren’t for the protectionist tariffs the west has imposed on them, I would seriously consider a Chinese EV, maybe a Zeeker or Byd.
  - xbmcuser 2y ago
    It was the same in the past with Japan and South Korea. What they produced was considered cheap quality but they kept improving till it no longer was.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Even if a car doesn't "feel" cheap, that doesn't mean it's reliable. AFAIK, that's still a big unknown for the Chinese brands, and long-term reliability isn't something Chinese brands are known for.
    - cced 2y ago
      Everything is made there but we don’t know how reliable their products are? Their products are unreliable so we have to hit them with import tariffs?
    - nick3443 2y ago
      They're probably similar reliability to "American" brands except they spy on you more atrociously.
- jkic47 2y ago
  I've ridden in a BYD ev, and I assure you they are not cheap quality. our companies are sclerosis compared to the energy in Asia
- csomar 2y ago
  You made an account in 22 just to write this comment?
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    online marking bots are incredibly sophisticated and long reaching. this was just one of the low effort, "chorus effect" ones. the real opinion movers will be with accounts that have a lot more traffic and look legitimate.
- metaphor 2y ago
  The American market was swallowing the same hubris back in the 70s when Japan exports started flooding domestic soil. Then the narrative flipped from "cheap quality" to "affordable" and "reliable", eventually forcing Detroit onto its knees and into bankruptcy.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Yes, but American cars back then really were total junk. The Japanese imports were not only smaller and much more fuel-efficient, they performed better and lasted much longer and were more reliable. These days, Chinese stuff still isn't really known for top quality, and Japanese cars haven't lost their quality edge, though you could argue they've fallen behind on adopting the latest technologies (electronic systems, and EV) because of their conservatism.
lewhoo 2y ago
Yes but the success of BYD also comes from big government subsidies. I'm aware that Tesla also received government money but what China is doing is unfair trade (at least that's the justification for tariffs). Also it's not like there's no competition. A Hyundai Inster costs 27000$ while a BYD c-segment atto 3 goes for 44172$. The BYD is a better car but not by that much imho.
- slaw 2y ago
  BYD received 'subsidies to the tune of “at least” $3.7 billion' [0]. That is 1200 USD per vehicle. China subsides EVs way less than the US or EU. Atto 3 price in China is 119,800 yuan ($16,644) [1], in Thailand 799,900 baht(23,674 USD) 8% tariff and 7% tax included [2] [0] https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/ https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-... [1] https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/byd-slashes-price-on-its-best-selling-suv-to-16k-to-compete-with-gas-cars/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/byd-slashes-price-on-its-best... [2] https://moneyandbanking.co.th/en/2024/115525/ https://moneyandbanking.co.th/en/2024/115525/
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- oefrha 2y ago
  You say this as if there's single large auto maker that's not subsidized to death. Here's $841m from Japanese government to Toyota in 2023: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japan-give-toyota-854-mln-support-domestic-ev-battery-output-nikkei-2023-06-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japan-... Here's $20k+ from Japanese government for each hydrogen vehicle sold, announced in 2014 (Toyota was the sole beneficiary, their FCV wasn't even launched at that point): https://www.reuters.com/article/business/japan-readies-fuel-cell-subsidies-in-bet-on-toyotas-next-big-thing-idUSKBN0FS194/ https://www.reuters.com/article/business/japan-readies-fuel-... Here's Subsidy Tracker listing more than $2B to Toyota from the U.S.: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/toyota https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/toyota Here's Japanese government announcing $20B subsidies for clean hydrogen production over the next 15 years: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Japan-to-spur-clean-hydrogen-production-with-20bn-in-subsidies https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Japan-to-spur-clean-... That's just what I gathered from three minutes' Googling. Feel free to look at Tesla, GM, Ford etc. on Subsidy Tracker. Then search for subsidies to German auto makers. Stop falling for this "they subsidize their businesses!!!" geopolitical nonsense.

xbmcuser 2y ago

China has already hit 50%+ new sales of plugin electric and plugin hybrid. The sticker price of electric cars has almost reached parity with ice even without any kind of subsidy then fuel savings are an additional bonus. Japan and other legacy car manufacturers have an extremely limited time left to catch up but they and their governments dragging their feet trying to protect an industry that is about to crash.

codedokode 2y ago
This is an interesting note because American electric cars (like Tesla) are super expensive.
- Animats 2y ago
  This is a huge problem. US automakers treated electric cars as a premium product. This is very clear for vehicles available in both electric and IC.[1] That premium has been decreasing rapidly. There's now a glut of used Teslas. In the commercial sector, though, the Ford Transit is slightly cheaper in electric than in IC.[2] [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-lightning https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/f-150-lightning [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit

ryuno_k 2y ago

And cheap quality.

cced 2y ago
I really don’t get the purpose of a comment like this, who is this for? Have you ridden in a Chinese EV? They don’t “feel” cheap. This type of rhetoric is pretty much the reason other companies are lagging behind. After all, why compete with a “cheap” competitor? There may have been a time when quality of Chinese vehicles was questionable but I’m not sure that’s still the case. If it weren’t for the protectionist tariffs the west has imposed on them, I would seriously consider a Chinese EV, maybe a Zeeker or Byd.
- xbmcuser 2y ago
  It was the same in the past with Japan and South Korea. What they produced was considered cheap quality but they kept improving till it no longer was.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Even if a car doesn't "feel" cheap, that doesn't mean it's reliable. AFAIK, that's still a big unknown for the Chinese brands, and long-term reliability isn't something Chinese brands are known for.
  - cced 2y ago
    Everything is made there but we don’t know how reliable their products are? Their products are unreliable so we have to hit them with import tariffs?
  - nick3443 2y ago
    They're probably similar reliability to "American" brands except they spy on you more atrociously.
jkic47 2y ago
I've ridden in a BYD ev, and I assure you they are not cheap quality. our companies are sclerosis compared to the energy in Asia
csomar 2y ago
You made an account in 22 just to write this comment?
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  online marking bots are incredibly sophisticated and long reaching. this was just one of the low effort, "chorus effect" ones. the real opinion movers will be with accounts that have a lot more traffic and look legitimate.
metaphor 2y ago
The American market was swallowing the same hubris back in the 70s when Japan exports started flooding domestic soil. Then the narrative flipped from "cheap quality" to "affordable" and "reliable", eventually forcing Detroit onto its knees and into bankruptcy.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Yes, but American cars back then really were total junk. The Japanese imports were not only smaller and much more fuel-efficient, they performed better and lasted much longer and were more reliable. These days, Chinese stuff still isn't really known for top quality, and Japanese cars haven't lost their quality edge, though you could argue they've fallen behind on adopting the latest technologies (electronic systems, and EV) because of their conservatism.

lewhoo 2y ago

Yes but the success of BYD also comes from big government subsidies. I'm aware that Tesla also received government money but what China is doing is unfair trade (at least that's the justification for tariffs). Also it's not like there's no competition. A Hyundai Inster costs 27000$ while a BYD c-segment atto 3 goes for 44172$. The BYD is a better car but not by that much imho.

slaw 2y ago
BYD received 'subsidies to the tune of “at least” $3.7 billion' [0]. That is 1200 USD per vehicle. China subsides EVs way less than the US or EU. Atto 3 price in China is 119,800 yuan ($16,644) [1], in Thailand 799,900 baht(23,674 USD) 8% tariff and 7% tax included [2] [0] https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/ https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-... [1] https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/byd-slashes-price-on-its-best-selling-suv-to-16k-to-compete-with-gas-cars/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/04/byd-slashes-price-on-its-best... [2] https://moneyandbanking.co.th/en/2024/115525/ https://moneyandbanking.co.th/en/2024/115525/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
oefrha 2y ago
You say this as if there's single large auto maker that's not subsidized to death. Here's $841m from Japanese government to Toyota in 2023: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japan-give-toyota-854-mln-support-domestic-ev-battery-output-nikkei-2023-06-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japan-... Here's $20k+ from Japanese government for each hydrogen vehicle sold, announced in 2014 (Toyota was the sole beneficiary, their FCV wasn't even launched at that point): https://www.reuters.com/article/business/japan-readies-fuel-cell-subsidies-in-bet-on-toyotas-next-big-thing-idUSKBN0FS194/ https://www.reuters.com/article/business/japan-readies-fuel-... Here's Subsidy Tracker listing more than $2B to Toyota from the U.S.: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/toyota https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/toyota Here's Japanese government announcing $20B subsidies for clean hydrogen production over the next 15 years: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Japan-to-spur-clean-hydrogen-production-with-20bn-in-subsidies https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Japan-to-spur-clean-... That's just what I gathered from three minutes' Googling. Feel free to look at Tesla, GM, Ford etc. on Subsidy Tracker. Then search for subsidies to German auto makers. Stop falling for this "they subsidize their businesses!!!" geopolitical nonsense.