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Considering they use accelerometer for it, nothing really stops them from adding this feature to all Apple Watches, potentially even the Series 1, right? Reser

by cromka 2y ago

Considering they use accelerometer for it, nothing really stops them from adding this feature to all Apple Watches, potentially even the Series 1, right? Reserving it to Series 10 and 9 really exposes their lack of hardware innovation. I mean, we were talking about them measuring glucose levels for years and this is what we get as a new flagship feature?

brandonb 2y ago
I suspect they also need oxygen saturation (introduced in the Apple Watch Series 6 in 2020) in order to make their overall sleep apnea detection algorithm work. Given that it only works with the Series 9 or above, it's possible they're also using the the temperature sensor as another input into their algorithm.
- jerlam 2y ago
  Did Apple resolve the patent issue that disabled oxygen saturation in the Series 9? Although it's possible that Sleep Apnea detection uses the oxygen saturation sensor but doesn't show its results directly.
  - brandonb 2y ago
    It wouldn't surprise me if they did the latter. The oxygen saturation sensor is fundamentally just another optical sensor with a different wavelength of light -- so if you feed all three wavelengths, plus the accelerometer, into a neural network, you may be able to pick up on oxygen-related physiological signals without explicitly processing an oxygen timeseries.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    No. I was very curious to see if it might be a last minute thing where it came back but the pages for the series 10 clearly don’t list it and if you use the comparison tool it’s highlighted as gone. I hope it’s just still disabled. It would suck for someone to buy a new watch, the fix the dispute in 2 months, and you never get the feature until you buy another new watch. They’re clearly not bending. I don’t know if they’ve given up or waiting on an appeal or maybe home a new administration will tell the ITC to go away or what.
    - _rs 2y ago
      Non-US watch series 10 specification pages mention it still, so it's there and just disabled. I wonder though if they could legally enable it after the fact on watches imported while the ban was in effect
  - skygazer 2y ago
    They're still appealing, but the underlying patent expires in 2028, so maybe they'll wait it out.
- cromka 2y ago
  They explicitly only mentioned accelerometer. If they used more sensors, in particular temperature sensor, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't mention in, especially that it would justify them limiting the feature to Series 9 and 10. However, reading on PAT (Peripheral arterial tone) and existing FDA-approved devices using that, they indeed use oxygen but not temperature. See for example "WatchPAT ONE" device.
  - dwighttk 2y ago
    Perhaps they aren’t worried about justification
swatcoder 2y ago
They absolutely could be segmenting features by generation even if they could introduce them into earlier products and it's pretty normal across the industry to do so, but "well, it seems to use the accelerometer" provides no evidence of that on its own. Without knowing more details about the implementation, it may rely on combining data from other sensors as well, it may need a certain frequency/resolution from a sensor that's not available in earlier generations of hardware, it might place too much demand on compute or power to maintain prior products' expected behavior, etc
- pdpi 2y ago
  > , it might place too much demand on compute or power to maintain prior products' expected behavior, etc Love it or hate it, this mentality of "the feature is technically possible but we won't enable it because we're not happy with the compromises it demands" is, by design, exactly the sort of logic that Apple is known for.
mikestew 2y ago
nothing really stops them from adding this feature to all Apple Watches… I’m confident there’s more to it than just sensor availability. Compute power for starters, as well as the fact that a Series 1 accelerometer may not have the necessary resolution, etc. Reserving it to Series 10 and 9 really exposes their lack of hardware innovation. Ah, the ol’ “Apple didn’t build what I want, ergo, Apple doesn’t innovate” trope.
- cromka 2y ago
  That's manipulative. I did not mention I expected anything in particular. If anything, your defensive narrative makes you come off as a fanboy.
a_vanderbilt 2y ago
Sure it probably comes down to sensor specs, but the same question can be asked about Apple Ingtelligence and the new iPhones. If the model is in a private cloud, why is it restricted to newer iPhones? Surely the preprocessing isn't so intensive that only the latest iPhones can do it. It's artificial segmentation in the interest of driving (historically weakening) sales.
- cromka 2y ago
  Yeah, I thought the same when they announced it. All in all, I feel that artificial segmentation is more frequent than ever and this can't be good indicator for their future growth, can it?
  - a_vanderbilt 2y ago
    It's definitely a sign of the decline of hardware innovation. It's not for lack of trying, however. Apple has experimented with Touch Bars, VR, and LIDAR cameras, largely to little effect. They just aren't disruptive enough. So how then do they segment if not hardware? Software. I think that growth is going to slow no matter what they do. Western and Japanese markets are saturated, and Chinese markets (once most promising) are bringing fierce competition both from local competition and the government.
- MBCook 2y ago
  It’s not all in a private cloud. Much is on device, and as we all know AI stuff loves CPU and RAM. They appear to have restricted it to 8 GB of RAM devices or more (when those appear). During The Talk Show interview at WWDC with John Gruber an Apple exec (Joz?) said they did it because of user experience issues, seeming implying speed. And given how hard AI hits hardware I think that’s relatively believable.
diebeforei485 2y ago
Probably requires the newer generation accelerometer. There are also other issues like power consumption overnight. Older watches have smaller batteries and slow charging. People will update the software, use the new features, and complain that Apple software updates are killing the battery (waking up to low battery plus slow charing means not being able to charge up before leaving for work). This has the effect of Apple only backporting new features if they don't consume too much battery.
bamboozled 2y ago
They're not adding it to the Ultra 1 either, what amazing advancements happened since the Ultra 1 to stop that from happening?

by cromka 2y ago

brandonb 2y ago

I suspect they also need oxygen saturation (introduced in the Apple Watch Series 6 in 2020) in order to make their overall sleep apnea detection algorithm work. Given that it only works with the Series 9 or above, it's possible they're also using the the temperature sensor as another input into their algorithm.

jerlam 2y ago
Did Apple resolve the patent issue that disabled oxygen saturation in the Series 9? Although it's possible that Sleep Apnea detection uses the oxygen saturation sensor but doesn't show its results directly.
- brandonb 2y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me if they did the latter. The oxygen saturation sensor is fundamentally just another optical sensor with a different wavelength of light -- so if you feed all three wavelengths, plus the accelerometer, into a neural network, you may be able to pick up on oxygen-related physiological signals without explicitly processing an oxygen timeseries.
- MBCook 2y ago
  No. I was very curious to see if it might be a last minute thing where it came back but the pages for the series 10 clearly don’t list it and if you use the comparison tool it’s highlighted as gone. I hope it’s just still disabled. It would suck for someone to buy a new watch, the fix the dispute in 2 months, and you never get the feature until you buy another new watch. They’re clearly not bending. I don’t know if they’ve given up or waiting on an appeal or maybe home a new administration will tell the ITC to go away or what.
  - _rs 2y ago
    Non-US watch series 10 specification pages mention it still, so it's there and just disabled. I wonder though if they could legally enable it after the fact on watches imported while the ban was in effect
- skygazer 2y ago
  They're still appealing, but the underlying patent expires in 2028, so maybe they'll wait it out.
cromka 2y ago
They explicitly only mentioned accelerometer. If they used more sensors, in particular temperature sensor, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't mention in, especially that it would justify them limiting the feature to Series 9 and 10. However, reading on PAT (Peripheral arterial tone) and existing FDA-approved devices using that, they indeed use oxygen but not temperature. See for example "WatchPAT ONE" device.
- dwighttk 2y ago
  Perhaps they aren’t worried about justification

swatcoder 2y ago

They absolutely could be segmenting features by generation even if they could introduce them into earlier products and it's pretty normal across the industry to do so, but "well, it seems to use the accelerometer" provides no evidence of that on its own. Without knowing more details about the implementation, it may rely on combining data from other sensors as well, it may need a certain frequency/resolution from a sensor that's not available in earlier generations of hardware, it might place too much demand on compute or power to maintain prior products' expected behavior, etc

pdpi 2y ago
> , it might place too much demand on compute or power to maintain prior products' expected behavior, etc Love it or hate it, this mentality of "the feature is technically possible but we won't enable it because we're not happy with the compromises it demands" is, by design, exactly the sort of logic that Apple is known for.

mikestew 2y ago

nothing really stops them from adding this feature to all Apple Watches… I’m confident there’s more to it than just sensor availability. Compute power for starters, as well as the fact that a Series 1 accelerometer may not have the necessary resolution, etc. Reserving it to Series 10 and 9 really exposes their lack of hardware innovation. Ah, the ol’ “Apple didn’t build what I want, ergo, Apple doesn’t innovate” trope.

cromka 2y ago
That's manipulative. I did not mention I expected anything in particular. If anything, your defensive narrative makes you come off as a fanboy.

a_vanderbilt 2y ago

Sure it probably comes down to sensor specs, but the same question can be asked about Apple Ingtelligence and the new iPhones. If the model is in a private cloud, why is it restricted to newer iPhones? Surely the preprocessing isn't so intensive that only the latest iPhones can do it. It's artificial segmentation in the interest of driving (historically weakening) sales.

cromka 2y ago
Yeah, I thought the same when they announced it. All in all, I feel that artificial segmentation is more frequent than ever and this can't be good indicator for their future growth, can it?
- a_vanderbilt 2y ago
  It's definitely a sign of the decline of hardware innovation. It's not for lack of trying, however. Apple has experimented with Touch Bars, VR, and LIDAR cameras, largely to little effect. They just aren't disruptive enough. So how then do they segment if not hardware? Software. I think that growth is going to slow no matter what they do. Western and Japanese markets are saturated, and Chinese markets (once most promising) are bringing fierce competition both from local competition and the government.
MBCook 2y ago
It’s not all in a private cloud. Much is on device, and as we all know AI stuff loves CPU and RAM. They appear to have restricted it to 8 GB of RAM devices or more (when those appear). During The Talk Show interview at WWDC with John Gruber an Apple exec (Joz?) said they did it because of user experience issues, seeming implying speed. And given how hard AI hits hardware I think that’s relatively believable.

diebeforei485 2y ago

Probably requires the newer generation accelerometer. There are also other issues like power consumption overnight. Older watches have smaller batteries and slow charging. People will update the software, use the new features, and complain that Apple software updates are killing the battery (waking up to low battery plus slow charing means not being able to charge up before leaving for work). This has the effect of Apple only backporting new features if they don't consume too much battery.

bamboozled 2y ago

They're not adding it to the Ultra 1 either, what amazing advancements happened since the Ultra 1 to stop that from happening?