8 ms·

I see that the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper and what happened to the grasshopper when winter came has been forgotten.

jay_kyburz 2y ago
There is a lot of debate about how much you need for retirement here in Australia. Financial advisers love to ask how much you think you need a year once you retire, expecting you to quote a figure about the same as your current salary. But once your house is paid off and your kids move out, how much are you really spending maintaining your things, feeding yourself, and going on a holiday once a year? 20k do you think? More?
- 10u152 2y ago
  Eh? 20k? Are you insane? Insurance, rates, food, utilities are already more than $30k and that’s with zero travel or other expenditure.
  - jay_kyburz 2y ago
    Haha, I must live a very modest life :)
- more_corn 2y ago
  Sounds pretty dull. Maybe that’s why people are taking a break when they’re young and enjoying their life.
- 1123581321 2y ago
  Presumably you mean early retirement since target retirement income only matters when calculating how much to have saved. That is a nice goal and I’d like to see more couples attempt it. However, retiring with the ability to withdraw only $20k is so little. Even small emergencies would force a big percentage drawdown. There would be zero ability to respond to family events with additional travel or assistance. If the retirees move to a cheap area to make budget, there’s possibly even more travel. Better to work a few more years, for most. Percentage of income is a crude tool, but the realistic flat amount to live can easily be 50% of retirees’ working income. Personal taste and family situation add to that.
  - jay_kyburz 2y ago
    I was thinking for target retirement. How much you need to have saved to get you from 65 till death. (25ish years). For early retirement I would want more, because you have your whole life to live. Places to see, mountains to climb, forests to explore. But this is the interesting point, if you think you can retire with with 500k rather than 1M in the bank, you can spend the difference while you are young.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  Holiday once a year is working people's thing. For us retirees holiday is 365 days long. Also can't sleep in hostels anymore, so need more money.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Since retirees have more time when they travel they can save money in other ways. Traveling during the off-season. Short-term rentals in apartments instead of staying in hotels. Or even house-sitting or house swaps. Buying food from local grocery stores, and cooking at the apartment, instead of eating out every meal. Taking public transit or walking or cycling instead of renting a car. Older people get concessions and discounts on tickets in a lot of places.
  - distances 2y ago
    > Also can't sleep in hostels anymore, so need more money. Hostels don't have age limits so you sure could. And some do, though understandably it's not that common.
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  > once your house is paid off Ah, a concept from the Before Times...
- nunez 2y ago
  There are some folks in the /r/fatFIRE sub that spend >$80k/year on just lifestyle things
- StanislavPetrov 2y ago
  Must be nice. 20k here in New York will barely pay your property taxes on a middle class home (not including heat, electricity, insurance or other maintenance). Then when you add the cost of healthcare, transportation, food and every other expense and things add up quickly.
linotype 2y ago
Don’t worry, savers will be made to bail them out one way or another.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Savers are people who were lucky in a very specific policy configuration. No point in denigrating people realizing they operate in a rigged system. Irresponsible people are a very small slice of the pie, compared to people who were hit with joblessness, healthcare expenses beyond their means, and those who could never make enough to save enough. We could've afforded pensions and universal healthcare. That productivity was direct to corporate profits and management compensation instead. This was a choice, this is the outcome. https://www.epi.org/publication/retirement-in-america/ https://www.epi.org/publication/retirement-in-america/ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/magazine/401k-retirement-crisis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/magazine/401k-retirement-... https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-experiment-has-failed-many-americans-n327321 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-expe... https://press.aarp.org/2024-4-24-New-AARP-Survey-1-in-5-Americans-Ages-50-Have-No-Retirement-Savings https://press.aarp.org/2024-4-24-New-AARP-Survey-1-in-5-Amer... https://thehill.com/business/personal-finance/3991136-nearly-half-of-baby-boomers-have-no-retirement-savings/ https://thehill.com/business/personal-finance/3991136-nearly... https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430900525-7/fulltext https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430900525-7/fulltext
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    That would be a salient point if this article wasn't specifically about the people being irresponsible.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      People should be mindful that rage bait should not set policy. A reminder to make data informed decisions, and to not take such a piece as anything other than an unhealthy reward center hit. Some humans are irresponsible, and will always incur some drag on systems at scale.

jay_kyburz 2y ago

There is a lot of debate about how much you need for retirement here in Australia. Financial advisers love to ask how much you think you need a year once you retire, expecting you to quote a figure about the same as your current salary. But once your house is paid off and your kids move out, how much are you really spending maintaining your things, feeding yourself, and going on a holiday once a year? 20k do you think? More?

10u152 2y ago
Eh? 20k? Are you insane? Insurance, rates, food, utilities are already more than $30k and that’s with zero travel or other expenditure.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  Haha, I must live a very modest life :)
more_corn 2y ago
Sounds pretty dull. Maybe that’s why people are taking a break when they’re young and enjoying their life.
1123581321 2y ago
Presumably you mean early retirement since target retirement income only matters when calculating how much to have saved. That is a nice goal and I’d like to see more couples attempt it. However, retiring with the ability to withdraw only $20k is so little. Even small emergencies would force a big percentage drawdown. There would be zero ability to respond to family events with additional travel or assistance. If the retirees move to a cheap area to make budget, there’s possibly even more travel. Better to work a few more years, for most. Percentage of income is a crude tool, but the realistic flat amount to live can easily be 50% of retirees’ working income. Personal taste and family situation add to that.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  I was thinking for target retirement. How much you need to have saved to get you from 65 till death. (25ish years). For early retirement I would want more, because you have your whole life to live. Places to see, mountains to climb, forests to explore. But this is the interesting point, if you think you can retire with with 500k rather than 1M in the bank, you can spend the difference while you are young.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Holiday once a year is working people's thing. For us retirees holiday is 365 days long. Also can't sleep in hostels anymore, so need more money.
- triceratops 2y ago
  Since retirees have more time when they travel they can save money in other ways. Traveling during the off-season. Short-term rentals in apartments instead of staying in hotels. Or even house-sitting or house swaps. Buying food from local grocery stores, and cooking at the apartment, instead of eating out every meal. Taking public transit or walking or cycling instead of renting a car. Older people get concessions and discounts on tickets in a lot of places.
- distances 2y ago
  > Also can't sleep in hostels anymore, so need more money. Hostels don't have age limits so you sure could. And some do, though understandably it's not that common.
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
> once your house is paid off Ah, a concept from the Before Times...
nunez 2y ago
There are some folks in the /r/fatFIRE sub that spend >$80k/year on just lifestyle things
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
Must be nice. 20k here in New York will barely pay your property taxes on a middle class home (not including heat, electricity, insurance or other maintenance). Then when you add the cost of healthcare, transportation, food and every other expense and things add up quickly.

linotype 2y ago

Don’t worry, savers will be made to bail them out one way or another.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Savers are people who were lucky in a very specific policy configuration. No point in denigrating people realizing they operate in a rigged system. Irresponsible people are a very small slice of the pie, compared to people who were hit with joblessness, healthcare expenses beyond their means, and those who could never make enough to save enough. We could've afforded pensions and universal healthcare. That productivity was direct to corporate profits and management compensation instead. This was a choice, this is the outcome. https://www.epi.org/publication/retirement-in-america/ https://www.epi.org/publication/retirement-in-america/ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/magazine/401k-retirement-crisis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/magazine/401k-retirement-... https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-experiment-has-failed-many-americans-n327321 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/retirement/great-401-k-expe... https://press.aarp.org/2024-4-24-New-AARP-Survey-1-in-5-Americans-Ages-50-Have-No-Retirement-Savings https://press.aarp.org/2024-4-24-New-AARP-Survey-1-in-5-Amer... https://thehill.com/business/personal-finance/3991136-nearly-half-of-baby-boomers-have-no-retirement-savings/ https://thehill.com/business/personal-finance/3991136-nearly... https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430900525-7/fulltext https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430900525-7/fulltext
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  That would be a salient point if this article wasn't specifically about the people being irresponsible.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    People should be mindful that rage bait should not set policy. A reminder to make data informed decisions, and to not take such a piece as anything other than an unhealthy reward center hit. Some humans are irresponsible, and will always incur some drag on systems at scale.