7 ms·

With more legal action on the horizon, how long before Archive.org closes?

117 points by leotravis10 2y ago

stavros 2y ago
Let's burn another library of Alexandria!
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  From what I have read, almost all the books had been moved weeks before it burned.
pledess 2y ago
it may actually be reasonable to start a page under https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Category:Closing_projects https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Category:Closing_proj... to track this
modeless 2y ago
Yeah, the wayback machine is clearly the most valuable service they provide by far and it would be a huge loss if liability from the other stuff forced it to close. Could it be spun off somehow? I say this as a user of the other stuff. I just built a site that relies on them to serve classic game assets (legally, because it's just the free demo)[1]. But I'd definitely prefer that they shut that down if it could keep the wayback machine on. [1] https://thelongestyard.link/ https://thelongestyard.link/
- kwhitefoot 2y ago
  There is also archive.today.
  - modeless 2y ago
    People use that almost exclusively for bypassing paywalls. It doesn't have the important thing which is the decades of archives.
yunohn 2y ago
We all knew that the IA was bound to be litigated out of existence at some point. But I don’t understand the authors point that it’s the IA’s fault - is there actually any way they could avoid or win an IP case ever?
- neaden 2y ago
  Probably not, but until they did unlimited digital lending no one sued. Controlled digital lending wa probably ways a non starter but the publishers seemed to make the choice not to risk the legal decision and public ill will to sue over it until the archive dropped the conteolled part.
- rodgerd 2y ago
  If the centrepiece of your legal defence is "we're just like a library" it would probably help to behave like a library: for example, if you purchase five books or CDs then lend five copies at a time. The IA doesn't appear to buy many books or CDs or DVDs (it has donation drives for second-hand copies). It doesn't do any controls over the number of copies "out". It resembles MegaUpload or other piracy sites more than a library.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    > It doesn't do any controls over the number of copies "out". This is untrue; under normal circumstances it had matching numbers "out" in the commercial book collection. It was madness in early 2020 when they temporarily abandoned this control in response to COVID. https://archive.org/details/statisticaltherm0000stid/page/n499/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/statisticaltherm0000stid/page/n4... You can look at a few pages of this book; you can log in and check it out, if no one else has it.
- tedunangst 2y ago
  One might ask how it came to be that this case is the one that was filed?
- sdrinf 2y ago
  * IA's most important function (at least for me) is holding copies of the World Wide Web as it was. * Given an annually compounding 30% linkrot, 99.92% of all the content ever published on the Internet is no longer available. * This has been litigated, see Field v. Google Inc., 412 F (2006), and held to be "fair use" due to safe harbor of Section 512(b) of the DMCA * This exemption does not apply to books, music, videos, or any of the other pirated material.
jampekka 2y ago
Intellectual property is a broken and harmful system that is really holding us back.
- rwmj 2y ago
  But also it's the system that exists, and the Internet Archive were never going to overthrow the system with this case.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    Who is then?
    - rwmj 2y ago
      Through lobbying your representatives to change the law, same as always.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - jampekka 2y ago
        Disney is a lot more effective at lobbying your representatives than you.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Librarians are notoriously good at organising. If the IA weren’t on a crusade, they would have coördinated with librarians.
        jampekka 2y ago
        You mean something like this? https://www.battleforlibraries.com/ https://www.battleforlibraries.com/
lubujackson 2y ago
As a graybeard fan of IA, I find their hubris damning. If they had one thing going for themselves it was some level of grandfathered goodwill - all of which they stupidly used up for this "COVID made me do it" nonsense. It may have always been inevitable that copyright laws would burn down our modern Library of Alexandria, but they didn't have to hand out torches like this.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Nobody should attempt any systemic change, let's rather lose one small isolated case at a time.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > attempt any systemic change That’s the joke. This never had a chance of changing anything. All it’s done is make publishers look reasonable, because most people don’t believe one person should be able to unilaterally override millions of authors’ preferences around their works. (To say nothing of their livelihoods.)
    - jampekka 2y ago
      Livelihoods of long dead people is a weirdly pressing issue when it comes to intellectual property.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Livelihoods of long dead people This is a reasonable stance! If the IA had only released books of dead authors, they’d have a point. They didn’t.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Looking at let’s play, fan fiction, and straight up piracy, etc I don’t think most people agree with the current copyright system even slightly. Edit: On Hacker News more people upvote subscription bypass links in articles than downvote them.
blendergeek 2y ago
> The only one putting The Internet Archive in danger... is The Internet Archive. Um ... no. The ones putting The Internet Archive in danger are the copyright cartels and the laws that enable them. If you "love the internet archive", you should oppose the current copyright regime. If you think that the Internet Archive is their own worst enemy and anyone who thinks differently is wrong, then you don't actually support the work of The Internet Archive. Sure, you may like parts of it. But you oppose its core mission. I support changing the law to allow the The Internet Archive to operate. I am sad that the current laws (apparently) may not allow it to operate. I am not dunking on everyone who thought they have a reasonable legal case. Why? Because I "love the internet archive".
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > you may like parts of it. But you oppose its core mission Sure. I guess I do. I stopped giving after this fiasco, so my money is where my mouth is. I still think the Wayback Machine and several of their projects are worthwhile. Perhaps the best outcome is this organisation fails and new one, with a new core mission, takes over. Because risking the entire organisation on an ideological boobdoggle and then doubling down practically ensures failure.
- mlyle 2y ago
  I support the work of the internet archive, but I also think that for a nonprofit in this role, survival is job one. The risky stuff needs to be done via cut-aways that, if defeated, don't wipe out all the other good. And even these cut-aways need to be used with discretion: better to choose favorable cases to fight first, instead of likely losses. Supporting the mission doesn't mean one needs to bet everything on maximalist success in the first go-round.
- rodgerd 2y ago
  > the copyright cartels You mean "living authors who would like to be paid for their work", right?
  - jampekka 2y ago
    A fraction of the monopoly rent goes to living authors.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Top comment from a related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41449965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41449965
altdataseller 2y ago
Maybe its just me but every single time I really needed a past snapshot of a webpage, they never ever have it. Or they do and its a loading GIF because all the content is loaded from JS. I think the fact a lot of sites are SPA or similar, and have bot blockers like Cloudflare is slowly killing their usefulness.
- dewey 2y ago
  I guess we are looking for different sites but I don’t recall an archive every being broken. I’m always amazed that I can fix old links just by traveling back in time.
- jdjei847 2y ago
  [dead]
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Large discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758
bityard 2y ago
As a frequent user and sometimes donor, I would be a-okay if archive.org gave up on everything that isn't archiving the web. They should re-focus on delivering a better archiving solution (their current system still misses a LOT of page resources and dynamic content), and could use a revamped UX. And of course MUCH faster access to archived pages. Basically, get better at what you're already best at. Don't be the next Mozilla.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Same. If anyone from their team reads this I hope they can reconsider their scope and goals. If normal webpages can be saved without legal issues then that's already a great achievement.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Feels like comments are focusing strongly on IA, but, the legal system really made a fool of itself in this one. It's not even trying to look respectable when it acts like this. It wasn't a takedown of digital libraries at all; it was a blanket insult against all libraries. The 2nd Court wasn't quite this bad, but if we want to write headlines, how about: "With more trash rulings, how long before the copyright system collapses?" As ever, Mike Masnick/Techdirt have strongly polarized but great coverage. https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/05/second-circuit-says-libraries-disincentivize-authors-to-write-books-by-lending-them-for-free/ https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/05/second-circuit-says-libr...
dotancohen 2y ago
Let's say that I want to back up interesting or important webpages, without the Internet Archive. What option do I have, given a URL, to archive it? Given: 1. It may require a login, for which I already have a cookie in my everyday browser. 2. It may require complex Javascript, e.g. React applications. 3. It may require dismissing popups for: cookie consent, newsletters, optional logins or signup, etc. 4. It may require solving a captcha. I have no problem letting the script run in the background and grabbing my attention when a captcha is required.
- khobragade 2y ago
  Zotero Connector and SingleFile browser extensions work well.
- tim333 2y ago
  Maybe https://archive.ph/faq https://archive.ph/faq ?
  - justaj 2y ago
    Warning: (Google) CAPTCHA wall.
FMecha 2y ago
So, if the Great 78 Project lawsuit ends up in favor of record labels, which groups will be next to go after them?
jmakov 2y ago
Don't we have a distributed alternative for that e.g. I dowbload a docker file and dedicate X TB to this proj?
dancemethis 2y ago
Of course the individual in the end decided to somehow make the article... about himself.
dang 2y ago
Recent and related: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 - Sept 2024 (783 comments)
butz 2y ago
"Internet Archive" should do a quick rebrand to "Archive of the Internet", AI for short, and as if by magic, whole copyright issues will be resolved.

117 points by leotravis10 2y ago

stavros 2y ago

Let's burn another library of Alexandria!

ranger_danger 2y ago
From what I have read, almost all the books had been moved weeks before it burned.

pledess 2y ago

it may actually be reasonable to start a page under https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Category:Closing_projects https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Category:Closing_proj... to track this

modeless 2y ago

Yeah, the wayback machine is clearly the most valuable service they provide by far and it would be a huge loss if liability from the other stuff forced it to close. Could it be spun off somehow? I say this as a user of the other stuff. I just built a site that relies on them to serve classic game assets (legally, because it's just the free demo)[1]. But I'd definitely prefer that they shut that down if it could keep the wayback machine on. [1] https://thelongestyard.link/ https://thelongestyard.link/

kwhitefoot 2y ago
There is also archive.today.
- modeless 2y ago
  People use that almost exclusively for bypassing paywalls. It doesn't have the important thing which is the decades of archives.

yunohn 2y ago

We all knew that the IA was bound to be litigated out of existence at some point. But I don’t understand the authors point that it’s the IA’s fault - is there actually any way they could avoid or win an IP case ever?

neaden 2y ago
Probably not, but until they did unlimited digital lending no one sued. Controlled digital lending wa probably ways a non starter but the publishers seemed to make the choice not to risk the legal decision and public ill will to sue over it until the archive dropped the conteolled part.
rodgerd 2y ago
If the centrepiece of your legal defence is "we're just like a library" it would probably help to behave like a library: for example, if you purchase five books or CDs then lend five copies at a time. The IA doesn't appear to buy many books or CDs or DVDs (it has donation drives for second-hand copies). It doesn't do any controls over the number of copies "out". It resembles MegaUpload or other piracy sites more than a library.
- mlyle 2y ago
  > It doesn't do any controls over the number of copies "out". This is untrue; under normal circumstances it had matching numbers "out" in the commercial book collection. It was madness in early 2020 when they temporarily abandoned this control in response to COVID. https://archive.org/details/statisticaltherm0000stid/page/n499/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/statisticaltherm0000stid/page/n4... You can look at a few pages of this book; you can log in and check it out, if no one else has it.
tedunangst 2y ago
One might ask how it came to be that this case is the one that was filed?
sdrinf 2y ago
* IA's most important function (at least for me) is holding copies of the World Wide Web as it was. * Given an annually compounding 30% linkrot, 99.92% of all the content ever published on the Internet is no longer available. * This has been litigated, see Field v. Google Inc., 412 F (2006), and held to be "fair use" due to safe harbor of Section 512(b) of the DMCA * This exemption does not apply to books, music, videos, or any of the other pirated material.

jampekka 2y ago

Intellectual property is a broken and harmful system that is really holding us back.

rwmj 2y ago
But also it's the system that exists, and the Internet Archive were never going to overthrow the system with this case.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Who is then?
  - rwmj 2y ago
    Through lobbying your representatives to change the law, same as always.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - jampekka 2y ago
      Disney is a lot more effective at lobbying your representatives than you.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Librarians are notoriously good at organising. If the IA weren’t on a crusade, they would have coördinated with librarians.
        jampekka 2y ago
        You mean something like this? https://www.battleforlibraries.com/ https://www.battleforlibraries.com/

lubujackson 2y ago

As a graybeard fan of IA, I find their hubris damning. If they had one thing going for themselves it was some level of grandfathered goodwill - all of which they stupidly used up for this "COVID made me do it" nonsense. It may have always been inevitable that copyright laws would burn down our modern Library of Alexandria, but they didn't have to hand out torches like this.

jampekka 2y ago
Nobody should attempt any systemic change, let's rather lose one small isolated case at a time.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > attempt any systemic change That’s the joke. This never had a chance of changing anything. All it’s done is make publishers look reasonable, because most people don’t believe one person should be able to unilaterally override millions of authors’ preferences around their works. (To say nothing of their livelihoods.)
  - jampekka 2y ago
    Livelihoods of long dead people is a weirdly pressing issue when it comes to intellectual property.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Livelihoods of long dead people This is a reasonable stance! If the IA had only released books of dead authors, they’d have a point. They didn’t.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Looking at let’s play, fan fiction, and straight up piracy, etc I don’t think most people agree with the current copyright system even slightly. Edit: On Hacker News more people upvote subscription bypass links in articles than downvote them.

blendergeek 2y ago

> The only one putting The Internet Archive in danger... is The Internet Archive. Um ... no. The ones putting The Internet Archive in danger are the copyright cartels and the laws that enable them. If you "love the internet archive", you should oppose the current copyright regime. If you think that the Internet Archive is their own worst enemy and anyone who thinks differently is wrong, then you don't actually support the work of The Internet Archive. Sure, you may like parts of it. But you oppose its core mission. I support changing the law to allow the The Internet Archive to operate. I am sad that the current laws (apparently) may not allow it to operate. I am not dunking on everyone who thought they have a reasonable legal case. Why? Because I "love the internet archive".

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> you may like parts of it. But you oppose its core mission Sure. I guess I do. I stopped giving after this fiasco, so my money is where my mouth is. I still think the Wayback Machine and several of their projects are worthwhile. Perhaps the best outcome is this organisation fails and new one, with a new core mission, takes over. Because risking the entire organisation on an ideological boobdoggle and then doubling down practically ensures failure.
mlyle 2y ago
I support the work of the internet archive, but I also think that for a nonprofit in this role, survival is job one. The risky stuff needs to be done via cut-aways that, if defeated, don't wipe out all the other good. And even these cut-aways need to be used with discretion: better to choose favorable cases to fight first, instead of likely losses. Supporting the mission doesn't mean one needs to bet everything on maximalist success in the first go-round.
rodgerd 2y ago
> the copyright cartels You mean "living authors who would like to be paid for their work", right?
- jampekka 2y ago
  A fraction of the monopoly rent goes to living authors.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

Top comment from a related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41449965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41449965

altdataseller 2y ago

Maybe its just me but every single time I really needed a past snapshot of a webpage, they never ever have it. Or they do and its a loading GIF because all the content is loaded from JS. I think the fact a lot of sites are SPA or similar, and have bot blockers like Cloudflare is slowly killing their usefulness.

dewey 2y ago
I guess we are looking for different sites but I don’t recall an archive every being broken. I’m always amazed that I can fix old links just by traveling back in time.
jdjei847 2y ago
[dead]

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Large discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758

bityard 2y ago

As a frequent user and sometimes donor, I would be a-okay if archive.org gave up on everything that isn't archiving the web. They should re-focus on delivering a better archiving solution (their current system still misses a LOT of page resources and dynamic content), and could use a revamped UX. And of course MUCH faster access to archived pages. Basically, get better at what you're already best at. Don't be the next Mozilla.

agumonkey 2y ago
Same. If anyone from their team reads this I hope they can reconsider their scope and goals. If normal webpages can be saved without legal issues then that's already a great achievement.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

Feels like comments are focusing strongly on IA, but, the legal system really made a fool of itself in this one. It's not even trying to look respectable when it acts like this. It wasn't a takedown of digital libraries at all; it was a blanket insult against all libraries. The 2nd Court wasn't quite this bad, but if we want to write headlines, how about: "With more trash rulings, how long before the copyright system collapses?" As ever, Mike Masnick/Techdirt have strongly polarized but great coverage. https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/05/second-circuit-says-libraries-disincentivize-authors-to-write-books-by-lending-them-for-free/ https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/05/second-circuit-says-libr...

dotancohen 2y ago

Let's say that I want to back up interesting or important webpages, without the Internet Archive. What option do I have, given a URL, to archive it? Given: 1. It may require a login, for which I already have a cookie in my everyday browser. 2. It may require complex Javascript, e.g. React applications. 3. It may require dismissing popups for: cookie consent, newsletters, optional logins or signup, etc. 4. It may require solving a captcha. I have no problem letting the script run in the background and grabbing my attention when a captcha is required.

khobragade 2y ago
Zotero Connector and SingleFile browser extensions work well.
tim333 2y ago
Maybe https://archive.ph/faq https://archive.ph/faq ?
- justaj 2y ago
  Warning: (Google) CAPTCHA wall.

FMecha 2y ago

So, if the Great 78 Project lawsuit ends up in favor of record labels, which groups will be next to go after them?

jmakov 2y ago

Don't we have a distributed alternative for that e.g. I dowbload a docker file and dedicate X TB to this proj?

dancemethis 2y ago

Of course the individual in the end decided to somehow make the article... about himself.

dang 2y ago

Recent and related: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41447758 - Sept 2024 (783 comments)

butz 2y ago

"Internet Archive" should do a quick rebrand to "Archive of the Internet", AI for short, and as if by magic, whole copyright issues will be resolved.