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Ask HN: Any hope for removable, rechargable battery standards?

• al2o3cr 2y ago
  The closest we've got nowadays is, IMO, 18650 cells - they're manufactured by a lot of different companies, and you can (usually) put them in anything that expects that size + capacity.
  • jerlam 2y ago
    I think many of those power tool batteries are 18650 or 21700 batteries soldered together under the shell. Laptops used to be, but as they've gotten slimmer and more space-conscious, now have mostly moved to custom pouch designs.
    • dreamcompiler 2y ago
      > batteries soldered together under the shell. They are not soldered. They are spot welded to bus bars. The distinction matters because the long duration of heat from a soldering iron will destroy Li-ion cells. A spot welder delivers more heat over a shorter time. This doesn't damage the cells.
  • etrautmann 2y ago
    Yep, someone should design a shell that you could 3d print and drop in 18650s to run power tools for Dewalt/Makita/etc. Connecting the batteries is kind of annoying but presumably there's some standard spring clips off the shelf that might work.
    • turtlebits 2y ago
      FWIW, power tools batterie are generally high amp rated and require a BMS that can support it. Not that you can't do it, but won't work with off the shelf 18650s.
      • Zak 2y ago
        I looked up teardowns of Dewalt, Milwaukee, and Makita battery packs and saw LG HB4, Samsung 30Q, and LG HD2 cells, respectively. Those are all off the shelf cells.
• LarsAlereon 2y ago
  For external battery packs 3D printed adapters are starting to become more available. Unfortunately there's too much profit in proprietary packs and device replacement due to failed internal batteries. Safety concerns are just plausible enough that nobody in government wants to stick their neck out for it.
• brudgers 2y ago
  There are standardized battery formats in industry. For example professional video. There are also industrial products standardized around consumer battery formats. But for consumer commodities like cordless drills, there are financial incentives toward bespoke interfaces protected with intellectual property laws.
• tacostakohashi 2y ago
  Any hope for removable, replaceable razor blade standards? Any hope for removable, replaceable inkjet cartridge standards?
  • throwaway4220 2y ago
    But batteries are way way more ubiquitous no?
  • Etheryte 2y ago
    I can't even tell if this is satire or not. Razor blades are replaceable and interchangeable, that's their whole thing.
    • idontwantthis 2y ago
      He means disposable shaving multirazor heads which are definitely not interchangeable.
      • al_borland 2y ago
        Old style razor blades for DE safety razors are also still sold, and standard. People have their brand of choice based on shave qualify, but the blade holder will accept any of them.
      • adamomada 2y ago
        It’s an interesting glimpse into the future of batteries, because there are exactly the same incentives involved with batteries and modern razors: The GGP poster has never in their life ever seen the traditional interchangeable standard double blades and razor, can’t even conceive that it was and is an option. Many people in the future will never in their life ever see interchangeable AA/AAA/C/D cells, and won’t be able to conceive it was and is an option.
  • mr_toad 2y ago
    I’m not sure I see the point with disposable razor blades. The handles are essentially given away.
• solardev 2y ago
  It's not a standards problem but a market incentives one. Companies make too much money off expensive shitty proprietary batteries. It's the razor blade model + brand lock-in for powered goods, especially power tools and vacuums and such. They can sell you $5 worth of batteries inside a $80 plastic shell. No company is going to give that up willingly. If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. Maybe the EU would have that kind of willpower (like they did with micro usb) but it'd be politically impossible in the US, and every company from computer to power tool manufacturers would lobby against you.
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • al_borland 2y ago
    With power tools, it’s more than that. It’s not just that you keep needing to buy their batteries if they die. It’s that once you have the battery for one, you are much more likely to buy their other products when the need arises. That way you either have multiple interchangeable batteries, or you can save money by not needing to get another battery with the main product.
    • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      You have to effectively marry your power tool provider to get worthwhile economies of scale. I wonder if there's a market for battery adapter-shims? (then they'd start doing HP-ink-level shenanigans, if they're not already). Looks like CharlesW answered my question before I asked it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481
      • erik_seaberg 2y ago
        This has been likened to a sorting hat for dads. https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090 https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090
        • 2y ago
• znpy 2y ago
  Not until the eurpean union steps in and forces some sense in the market. I know this is going to be perceived as controversial but so far it’s the only way I’ve seen good things happen (eg: gdpr, digital markets act, usb-c everywhere - iPhones included)
  • haunter 2y ago
    Is the digital markets act a good thing? I remember before that most video game stores, especially Steam, had regional pricing in the EU. Since the act it became forbidden, you can’t “price discriminate”, so everyone pays the same, Luxembourg users and Bulgarian users too.
    • znpy 2y ago
      > Since the act it became forbidden, you can’t “price discriminate”, so everyone pays the same, Luxembourg users and Bulgarian users too. We can still get a ~ 30% discount since we don't have to pay, say, the apple tax anymore.
  • Kon-Peki 2y ago
    The EU passed battery regulation last year. I’m not sure how well it will force interoperability; that may be a byproduct but it might not. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32023R1542 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
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• physhster 2y ago
  For power tools at least they're mostly if not all 18v these days. You can get adapters to use tools from brand A with batteries from brand B. Works great in a pinch, but I'd certainly prefer an open standard.
  • dreamcompiler 2y ago
    18v and 20v batteries are interchangeable. But I probably wouldn't use a 24v Kobalt battery in an 18v tool. Kobalt batteries are really closer to 22 or 23v but still the difference from 18v might be enough to overheat the motor in your tool.
• pcdoodle 2y ago
  I run mower batteries in my eBike (40V) but it requires a 3d printed adapter to pigtail leads. The main gripe i have is the greenworks started adding DRM on one of the pins so I can't run in reverse: my large non greenworks 40V battery cannot power any of their tools. Milwaukee M12 tool batteries are a little different, their cells are not protected from over discharge internally (the tool uses 3 pins to monitor). So this is something to watch out for. A standard battery would be ideal. 4.2V fully charged cells are everywhere and if protected, series/parallel configurations could cover so many bases and eliminate a lot of waste. Where could we pressure a few cross platform uses? So far it's been eBike/Lawncare batts for me. Pretty safe if you respect the discharge/charge rates.
  • ravenstine 2y ago
    > The main gripe i have is the greenworks started adding DRM on one of the pins so I can't run in reverse: my large non greenworks 40V battery cannot power any of their tools. Imagine being the developer tasked with implementing such anti-consumer crap. I'd like to think I'd flip off my boss and quit on the spot if I were they. Thankfully, I've yet to be handed such an opportunity.
  • notjulianjaynes 2y ago
    I do the same with EGO 52 volt batteries. These also have no unedrvolt/over-discharge* protection but for me this is better because my controller handles that and I can regen brake (p sure you can't with I assume you're talking about Ryobi 40v as they're the most common maker I've seen of that standard for power tools.) *This is also true for Dewalt 20v.
• jerlam 2y ago
  Some of the voltage differences aren't even real. https://www.protoolreviews.com/20v-max-vs-18v-battery-power/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/20v-max-vs-18v-battery-power/
• jacknews 2y ago
  There doesn't seem to be much of a network effect to propel any given proprietary 'standard' to prominence, and so the only solution to this will be state enforcement. The EU is doing a decent job here IMHO, eg with mandatory USB phone charging.
• fragmede 2y ago
  Dyson vacuums have a 3D printable adapter to take power tool batteries, so there's that.
• galago 2y ago
  I photo/video lights from Neweer that use a Sony standard battery which may or may not be made by Sony. This seems to be because media creators already have these batteries/chargers. So maybe sometimes the market does give people what they want. It has to be enough to influence the puchasing decision.
• bluGill 2y ago
  I get close enough by standardizing on Dewalt tools. Large catalog of good tools use it. there are other good choices the larger point isn't the brand but the decision before buying to choose which battery system to get on and then stay on it. if dewalt introduces a different battery I will look at their competion again.
  • jaredhallen 2y ago
    True. And a couple other points from someone invested in the Milwaukee ecosystem (which I assume are similarly true for Dewalt and others). The batteries are common enough that knockoffs are readily available. This would seem to be the objective - competition among battery suppliers. The problem is the off-brand batteries are hit and miss at best. I still have the first two M18 batteries I bought at least twelve years ago. They've been charged countless times and are still going strong. The branded batteries are annoyingly expensive, and yet worth the money in my experience. On the other side of the equation, there are plenty of off-brand accessories that utilize the batteries. I have an LED shop light that uses them, for example. And beyond that there are little adapters that attach to the batteries with wires that let you power whatever at 18v. My kids just participated in a power wheels "demolition derby" last weekend (they attach balloons to the power wheels and the kids pop each other's balloons). Both of their power wheels were borrowed from different people, and both were converted to run off Milwaukee M18 batteries. I'd wager most of the rest out there were too.
• aaron695 2y ago
  I bought my first 3D printed object, an adapter from one brand to another. (second and third where battery and tool holders for the wall, I thought that was cool there are practical mini-factories in peoples homes now) It works well, I leave it in one tool (blower) we use a lot. But I think theoretically mixing them might increase the chance of a fire or tool damage because the packs are different. Something something current cutoff, low voltage protection, no idea in practice if it's a real problem. Battery tools are amazing and getting more Star Trek every year, try not to get the EU to slow them down too much.
  • notjulianjaynes 2y ago
    Some brands put the protection in the battery (Milwaukee 20v does) others put it in the tool (EGO, Dewalt). If it's in the battery you're probably fine. If it's in the tool and you're using a differnt tool, a cheap hack would be to put a little voltage meter on it, and know what voltage you should not drop below. (I think it's 2.5v per cell on li-ion.) edit: If you're talking about putting battery packs in series, (2x 20v packs for a 36/40 volt tool for example) an ideal diode might work: https://product.torexsemi.com/en/technical-support/techfaq/doc_4261 https://product.torexsemi.com/en/technical-support/techfaq/d...
• CharlesW 2y ago
  Has anyone here used power tool battery adapters? https://powertoolsadapters.com/ https://powertoolsadapters.com/
  • tisdadd 2y ago
    I know that my dad had some from Dewalt 20 volt to same for several other brands that he likes,and I have utilized. Not sure if from the same company. I believe you can 3d print some on thingiverse.com from what i recall as well, and use a parts list supplied for the wiring.
    • notjulianjaynes 2y ago
      Note: Dewalt 20 volts have no over discharge protection built into their BMS so be aware of that if using a 3d printed adapter.
  • avhon1 2y ago
    These make tools run, but they're dangerous because they break the safety battery safety features which are built into the tool. With the exceptions of Ryobi and Makita, most power tool battery safety features are built in to the tools, and they communicate to the battery. At minimum, they check a thermistor. More sophisticated schemes can query the battery for shutoff voltage and maximum current.
  • dreamcompiler 2y ago
    Yes. They work fine. Just don't use them for charging. Charge all batteries in the original charger they were designed for.
• notjulianjaynes 2y ago
  On Ryobi 40v if you stick a resistor between the tx and ground I think (look it up on youtube) you can charge with a standard 10s li-ion charger or cc/cv source.
• Zak 2y ago
  There are semistandard cylindrical Li-ion cells. Common sizes include 14500 (14x50mm; AA-size), 18650, and 21700. Many devices with built-in or proprietary batteries use these cells, but it seems like flashlights are the only category where they're usually removable and not housed in a proprietary case. I've owned bluetooth speakers and handheld fans that run on a single 18650. For many other product categories, the reasons they don't are mostly counter to the interests of consumers, but market demand doesn't seem to be strong enough to change this.
• choonway 2y ago
  There is an open standard - USB PD - 48V 240W. If that's not enough (e.g. boiling water for coffee) you can always chain a few in parallel. You don't really want to restrict yourself to just changing batteries because chemistries improve (e.g. LiFePO4, NIBs) etc.
• dreamcompiler 2y ago
  The batteries inside the case are mostly the same: 18650 cells or something close to that. What varies is the number of cells and the plastic case they're wrapped in. There exist case adapters that allow you to use e.g. a Makita battery on a B&D tool; you can find them on Amazon. As long as the voltages are close, they work. (Don't use adapters for charging! Only use them for powering equipment.) If you know what you're doing you can even replace the cells in the case yourself. But I must emphasize the caveat above; this can be incredibly dangerous if you are not an expert. Even if you are a seasoned EE, you might not know enough to be messing with high-energy stores that cannot be shut off.
• benoau 2y ago
  There are tons of rechargeable standardized batteries I have cr2032 coin batteries, the 18650 (iirc). Regarding adapters, I have been replacing them with USB-C-to-barrel connectors and even got three devices off a single GAN charger. I have been trying to find the pitfalls of this but it’s awesome in theory!
• oulipo 2y ago
  Hey! You might be interested by what we're building at Gouach We're engineers/designers from France, and we've built the Ultimate DIY Battery that you can repair and refill! It works with 90% of the bikes/motor brands on the market, so I assumed that some people here might be interested, if they got a non-functional batteries but they still want to use their e-bike? We believe that everybody should have control about stuff they own, and we should fight against planned obsolescence! Here are a few videos about our founder on the battery itself, why we built it, and how to assemble it: - What is the Gouach Battery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsuW1NPkvNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsuW1NPkvNk - Presentation of the pack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLoCihE0eIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLoCihE0eIA - Presentation of the fireproof and waterproof casing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDJpt7RDbRM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDJpt7RDbRM Here are the juicy bits: https://docs.gouach.com https://docs.gouach.com We'd love some feedback from the e-bike DIY builder community Oh, and it's launching as a Kickstarter in September and there is an offer for early-backers here https://get.gouach.com/1 https://get.gouach.com/1 for a 25% discount on the battery! You can follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gouach.batteries https://www.instagram.com/gouach.batteries to get the latest news!
  • notjulianjaynes 2y ago
    This seems cool but unlikely something I'd use. There's two types of people who will be building their own e-bike batteries: 1. cheap bastards hoarding broken tool packs to tear down and make a pack with mixed cells. The hard part here isn't welding it's testing and sorting the cells by ir and capacity.(edit: me) 2. People building very high performance bikes at 72-100 volts and very high amperage, likely not using 18650s. In both cases I'd be curious to know if there's a difference in maximum current between a welded pack and your clamped design.
    • throwwwwwksksk 2y ago
      This is exactly what I was wondering when I first saw Guarch (great videos btw). Is this something that users of regular Bosch batteries would benefit? I’m assuming that those commercial battery packs have a good BMS and temperature control, basically preventing most fires. Then, at the same time I saw those rugged charging boxes. Would regular customers benefit from a more sturdy battery design like yours?
• deleted 2y ago
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• stephenr 2y ago
  For home-use power tools there is https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology