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Hallelujah, Leonard Cohen, and a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer's suicide
- kwhitefoot 2y agoI don't remember when I first heard Hallelujah. But I do remember that I was mesmerised from the first verse.
- ycombinete 2y agoI definitely first heard John Cale’s version in Shrek. Until today I thought it was Rufus Wainright’s version. But for some reason the version in the film itself is Cale’s, and the version in the official soundtrack is Wainright’s!
- spondylosaurus 2y agoYou may appreciate this (not my post, just amusing to me): https://world.hey.com/horses/a-rant-about-the-gaslighting-bastard-that-is-the-official-shrek-soundtrack-6417d419 https://world.hey.com/horses/a-rant-about-the-gaslighting-ba...
- ycombinete 2y agoI did. I really appreciated that. It definitely mirrors, in hyperbole, my own sense of shock and irritation! It certainly says a lot that the Wainright version has 167,633,627 plays on Spotify, and Cale's has 3,823,629.
- woodruffw 2y agoI think the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at minimum :-) The observations about obscurity are good ones, however -- A Confederacy of Dunces is a fantastic book, and it's hard to say how many other fantastic works of music, literature, &c. are lost in closets and old laptop hard drives. But I think it's not as much about genius as the author seems to think: given that we don't actually know the denominator under "known great works to unknown great ones," it seems equally plausible to me that "genius" is not the rare or distinguishing thing we always treat it as.
- kwhitefoot 2y agoBuckley's version is trash in my opinion. I've just listened to the official video on YourTube. I had to give up halfway through and switch to Leonard Cohen's version Live in London. Cohen sings it like it matters, like it's a matter of life and death. Moved me to tears. The gatekeepers have a lot to answer for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q
- worik 2y agoIn matters of taste there is no right an wrong Only good an bad
- khazhoux 2y agoI always say: there’s no dumb questions, only questions asked by dumb people.
- StayTrue 2y agoSeems like an extreme take. I think Buckley’s version is sublime but love Cohen’s too (which I’ve been privileged to enjoy live on a couple occasions).
- Lerc 2y agoI think this is the 'It's either 5-stars or 1-star' principle in action. I feel given a different context they might say that both both renditions are good but one speaks to them on a more personal level. I'm guessing this comes about as a desire to be heard causing a magnification of the opinion rather than the force of the opinion. If you feel like nobody takes notice of your moderate opinion one might feel like a expressing stronger opinion in the same direction might increase the impact.
- lern_too_spel 2y agoI also just don't care for Buckley's cover, and it's not a "not quite as good as the other one" feeling but a "not good" impression, so I can see where GGP is coming from. Buckley needlessly draws out the song. I own both Cohen's track from Various Positions and Buckley's cover from Grace, which Google gave away for free to try to convince people to use its music store. I don't listen to the latter. Even if I didn't have the former, I still wouldn't listen to the latter. That's just how I feel about it, and I understand that other people feel differently.
- kayo_20211030 2y agoSeems a little unfair on Yetnikoff and Gottlieb. There are potentially a whole heap of songs and books that are _potentially_ better than both Hallelujah and A Confederacy of Dunces; but they are undiscovered, and most will remain that way. It seems unfair that the author of the piece, with super-duper hindsight and a firm hand on the survivor bias handle, picks two survivors and then ridicules the editor and reviewer who didn't see precisely what everybody else didn't see either. Seems a bit of a cheap shot.
- worik 2y agoI agree It is good that the barriers erected by record co panties and publishers have come down. But what now? Will we get more than Taylor Swift (bless her)? The Era of a few "stars" and legions of impoverished artists is hard to shake.
- noizejoy 2y ago> The Era I see what you did there :-) > a few "stars" and legions of impoverished artists is hard to shake. Arguably "winner takes all" economies are a very common end-point in many disciplines - not just music / the arts.
- worik 2y ago> Arguably "winner takes all" economies are a very common end-point Hopefully a waystation not an endpoint
- atombender 2y agoThat's not what I understood the author's point to be. Rather, they suggest that genius isn't enough; a large part is luck, timing, having the right mentors and chanpions — and in these two cases, the works became successful in spite of everything. As they point out in the last paragraphs, many works of genius are probably lost because the stars don't align.
- kstenerud 2y ago
- ptsneves 2y agoThis article reminds me of “the last days of roger federer”
- worik 2y agoOdd to hear Leonard described as a late bloomer True he did not make records until his thirties, but Songs From a Room was a huge influence on me, in the 1970s Leonard was a huge star in many parts of the world then
- bazoom42 2y agoHe was quite popular in Europe. “Various Positions” (the album containing Hallelujah) was a top 10 hit in several countries but wasn’t even released in the US. Cohen was once asked why he was so much more popular in Europe than North America. He said it was probably because they didn’t understand the lyrics.
- paul7986 2y agoSongwriting could be labeled a weird phenomenon like why do people suddenly have/hear melodies and lyrics pop in their head (myself since a teen). Where does it come from as I often wondered. Though songwriters write differently a lot write as noted above like Dylan, Dolly Parton and countless others (it just comes to them). While others like Cohen work on their songs .. maybe write a poem and then add music to it.. it's not all heard at once in their head. Elton John writes music to Taupin's lyrics. I have tried that before but the lazy boom hear it in my head and sing in Voice memos to remember it later i prefer. Im definetly none of those people mentioned above but songwriting is something i enjoy immensely.
- lofaszvanitt 2y ago[flagged]
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- taylorius 2y agoI daresay I'm in a minority of one, but I cannot abide Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of popular music.
- noizejoy 2y ago> In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of popular music. What is the other metric you're implying? Because "popular" is the only metric in your statement and if that's also the metric you imply with "overrated", then the statement doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
- bryanrasmussen 2y agogenerally that song is rated on lyrical quality, so that's what I would expect.
- taylorius 2y agoI wasn't using the word popular as a metric - "popular music" is a fairly standard term, and is used as a category designator, to refer to music created by modern songwriters and/or bands, as opposed to say, classical music. I must say I find it slightly hard to believe that this isn't obvious - but I hope this explanation clarifies things.
- noizejoy 2y agoYou may think it's pedantic, but in this case it's a significant distinction. "popular music" != "pop music" The term "popular music" is an umbrella for music that has "wide appeal" and associated with "large audiences" [0] -- i.e. it's a statistical term. It can apply to many "genres" (that's the music industry term, rather than categories). One of those genres[1] is "pop music"[2]. And after your clarification, I now assume your OP actually meant "pop music". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
- geertj 2y agoLast month a guitarist named James Hargreaves posted a YouTube video [1] proposing a fascinating theory about the hidden chord that Cohen refers to in the first verse of Hallelujah (“Now I've heard there was a secret chord That David played, and it pleased the Lord”). In the video, Hargreaves makes the case that the hidden chord is the third chord. It would be unplayable on an instrument tuned at the time of King David, and it is the chord that Cohen plays in the chord progression in the first verse under the word ‘composing.’ He then links this up with the ‘third cord’ (no h) from Ecclesiastes which indicates God blessing a marriage by being the third person in the marriage. This then explains the reference “But you don't really care for music, do you?“ and the second verse which talks about King David and his affair with Bathsheba. Hargreaves then goes even further and suggests Cohen might have had an affair like King David and wrote this song to claim it was true love and blessed by God, as the third cord. Not sure how real this all is. But given that Cohen took years to write the song it would be quite likely there is a deeper meaning. [1] https://youtu.be/mp9hYxw-Q6I?si=OUB8W5m5dSckBOG2 https://youtu.be/mp9hYxw-Q6I?si=OUB8W5m5dSckBOG2
- fsckboy 2y agoi just finished watching it when I saw your comment, came here to post about it, you're right, it's a fascinating video
- twelvechairs 2y agoCohen has said in interviews he mashes imagery together and picks things that sound right. I'm sure some of the individual references are very true but not sure about any grand narrative explanations where all the lines and verses tie together in some exact neat way like this.
- qsdf38100 2y agoYeah, maybe, who knows. Of course, you should be aware that if you search for a pattern long enough, you’ll find one. Now, in this first verse are interesting lyrics that are referring to the chords being played, which I think are not hidden but you have to know a bit of music theory. English is not my first language so it might be a bit broken, but bear with me :) "The forth, the fifth" refer to the degrees of the chords being played at this moment. In C major, the 1st degree is the C major chord, the 4th is F major, 5th is G major. This is a very common progression, and usually it ends up in a 5th -> 1st cadence, which would be F major, G major and C major here. But you can also, instead of the expected 1th, go to the 6th, which is a A minor chord here. This is known as a minor fall, I assume, which is exactly the lyrics at that moment. But then, the lyrics mention a "major lift", which is also what happens when it goes through the same progression, 4th, 5th, but then the 3rd (E major) with one note lifted (the G#) making the chord major, and resolving to A in a true cadence, because E major -> A minor is a 5th -> 1st for the A minor scale. To summarize, the chord progression is faking a IV V I cadence, but falling to VI (A minor), then faking a IV V I cadence again, but lifting to a "majorified" III (E major) which become V I cadence in the A scale, allowing us to resolve on A instead of "falling" on A like the first time. So we went from the C major scale to the A minor scale, which are also the first two chords of the song, repeated many times. So, this whole "the 4th, the 5th, the minor fall and the major lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah" is nicely describing the chord progression underneath, while being poetic, and I just love it. So I had to share, sorry if it was obvious to you already. Cheers.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
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- dang 2y ago(1) That is entirely made up; (2) you can't do this here. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41476318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41476318.
- natal_radix 2y ago[flagged]
- i4i 2y agoImmediately after the book won the Pulitzer in 1981, Gottlieb could not recall Toole or the manuscript. In his 2016 memoir, Gottlieb wrote that, after returning to A Confederacy of Dunces decades later, he felt the same about its flaws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gottlieb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gottlieb
- geenkeuse 2y agoThis song is perfection. It transcended the medium and became something else entirely. Well and truly, a masterpiece.
- niccl 2y agoOne of the local music venue owners used to be tour manager for Leonard Cohen. When Cohen died, this guy organised a tribute concert with a whole bunch of local talent. The guy that did Hallelujah is a fantastic rock guitarist and, recognising that the world was Halellujah'd out, did a rock version, more along the lines of Hendrix' Star Spangled Banner than anything I'd ever heard before. It was _awesome_ (literally awe inspiring).He was so into it he had no recollection later of what he'd done or how he'd performed, but to the audience it had as much power and feeling as the 'real thing'. Sadly, there's no recording of it in any form. I've asked him a few times if he could do it again so it could be recorded, but he says he doesn't even want to try because it was just of the moment and he didn't think he could do it again
- noduerme 2y ago[flagged]
- bsder 2y agoA caution to those who are going to go grab "Confederacy of Dunces". It is the equivalent of the "trainwreck reality TV" a la "Jersey Shore" but written significantly before that was a "genre". If you like that kind of humor, you will like the book. If you do not like that kind of humor, you will find the book quite the slog. The "trainwreck reality TV" aspect is, in my opinion, why the book had such difficulty gaining traction with the literati.
- sevensor 2y agoThe first time I read it, I disliked it. I read it again twelve years later and I hated it. Ignatius is an unpleasant person and I don’t enjoy reading about his misadventures. This is probably because I’m a philistine.
- ikr678 2y agoThat is part of the genius of the author though, they were able to create such a reviled character that has stuck with you. I have read 100's of fiction books and would be hard pressed to recall even 10% of their respective protagonists. I read Dunces once, maybe 15 years ago, and can recall the disgust at that character immediately.
- ultimoo 2y ago> it. Listen to Leonard Cohen’s version, John Cale’s version, Rufus Wainwright’s version, and Jeff Buckley’s version. Each version is as beautiful as the other, although Buckley’s version transcends them all No. Cohen’s is better.
- neom 2y agoQuite literally got into an argument with someone about this last night. I said it's his best and worst song, best because it's great, worst because anyone else dare sing it.
- petesergeant 2y agoI wonder if it depends which version you heard first. I’m a Cohen fan but find his version dull, where the Buckley version is sublime
- d13 2y agoThis is why music is completely subjective. What some hear as “sublime” others hear as “overcooked”. It’s all fine though, this is all part of what gives life richness and texture.
- wslh 2y agoThere's a key aspect of Cohen’s success that stands out: his resilience to rise after a fall. After being defrauded by his longtime manager, Kelley Lynch, and nearly going bankrupt at 70, Cohen embarked on an extensive world tour from 2008 to 2013 to recover financially. As a fan of Leonard Cohen’s music, Hallelujah ranks lower on my playlist compared to other songs like those from I’m Your Man, Recent Songs, and New Skin for the Old Ceremony."
- digbybk 2y agoI think the Future is a massively under appreciated album.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jonstewart 2y agoAs a Gen Xer, I’ve consigned both Hallelujah and A Confederacy of Dunes to the “maudlin Boomer works” dustbin in my mind. Cale’s version is the best, but I far prefer Paris 1919.
- __alexander 2y agoI don’t have an opinion about whether Cohen or Jeff Buckley version is better, they are equally beautiful. For anyone new to Jeff Buckley check out his live stuff at cafe sin-e. The first time I heard “Be Your Husband” I got goose-bumps. That guy had some amazing talent.
- taxicabjesus 2y agoMy introduction to Hallelujah was via Malcolm Gladwell's podcast. A good portion of Season 1, Episode 7 (2016) was dedicated to the evolution of Leonard Cohen's song from 'forgotten B-side track' to the song that is commonly known and covered today. https://youtu.be/4OKQTl09vCk?t=1180 https://youtu.be/4OKQTl09vCk?t=1180 (link to 19:30) https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/hallelujah https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/halleluj... The author of this submission mentions this podcast: > On his podcast, Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell presents his theory on two types of artists: conceptual innovators and experimental innovators. Conceptual innovators create their best work early on in their careers. Both this submission and Gladwell's podcast are based on Alan Light's 2014 book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Holy-or-the-Broken/Alan-Light/9781982141363 https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Holy-or-the-Broke... / https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Broken_Hallelujah_Rock_and_Roll_Redemp/7pRFAwAAQBAJ https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Broken_Hallelujah_Roc...
- assimpleaspossi 2y agoI find it strange when I hear this song sung and played in church services and other religious events where, I believe, they think it's a religious song of praise or somesuch.
- edgyquant 2y agoIt is a religious song, full of biblical narratives and sung by a Jewish man. That it is more about his life and struggles with love than God doesn’t change that and if anything makes it even more religious.
- droptablemain 2y agoI had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Cohen on his final U.S. tour. He crooned and gyrated on the stage for 3+ hours and over 30 tracks, including two encores, in his mid-70s at that point. He never lost it, even at the end.
- lipitic 2y agoMe and my girfriend moved to Paris at the beginning of 2020, to a nice little apartment in the Le Marais district. The first Covid lockdown started a couple of months after we came and we were soon all trapped in our tiny spaces, with not much to do, and unable to fully enjoy our very first warm and gentle Paris spring. Our living room overlooked a closed courtyard and (if you were impolite enough!) you could see in all the neighbors apartments. One guy used to play a record of Buckley's Hallelujah every evening, just as the sun was about to set. Never missed a day, and I found it amusing, at times irritating, but now I remember it very fondly.
- throwaway45383 2y agoI watched a documentary about his life and his battles with the music industry, structured around Hallelujah. I recommend it. I felt like I got to know both the artist and the person. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7600742/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7600742/
- zvr 2y agoPeople interested in Hallelujah should read the exhaustive book The Holy or the Broken: Leonard Cohen, Jeff Buckley, and the Unlikely Ascent of "Hallelujah" which was also turned into a documentary film Hallelujah: Leonard Cohen, A Journey, A Song.