7 ms·

If only we hadn't lost Jan Sloot's Digital Coding System [1], we'd be able to transmit GB in milliseconds across the web! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slo

If only we hadn't lost Jan Sloot's Digital Coding System [1], we'd be able to transmit GB in milliseconds across the web! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloot_Digital_Coding_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloot_Digital_Coding_System

supriyo-biswas 2y ago
This claim itself is probably a hoax and not relevant to the article at hand; but these days with text-to-image models and browser support, you could probably do something like <img prompt="..."> and have the browser render something that matches the description, similar to the "cookbook" analogy used in the Wikipedia article.
- Lorin 2y ago
  That's an interesting concept, although it would generate a ton of bogomips since each client has to generate the image themselves instead of one time on the server. You'd also want "seed" and "engine" attributes to ensure all visitors see the same result.
  - LeoPanthera 2y ago
    You could at least push the work closer to the edge, by having genAI servers on each LAN, and in each ISP, similar to the idea of a caching web proxy before HTTPS rendered them impossible.
    - lucianbr 2y ago
      Push the work closer to the edge, and multiply it by quite a lot. Generate each image many times. Why would we want this? Seems like the opposite of caching in a sense.
      - sroussey 2y ago
        If you are reading a web page on mars and bandwidth is more precious than processing power, then <img prompt=“…”> might make sense. Not so much for us on earth however.
        roywiggins 2y ago
        This sort of thing (but applied to video) is a plot point in A Fire Upon The Deep. Vinge's term for the result is an "evocation."
      - bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
        All compression is, in a sense, the opposite of caching. You have to do more work to get the data, but you save space.
  - onion2k 2y ago
    Unless you don't actually care if everyone sees the same results. So long as the generated image is approximately what you prompted for, and the content of the image is decorative so it doesn't really need to be a specific, accurate representation of something, it's fine to display a different picture for every user. One of the best uses of responsive design I've ever seen was a site that looked completely different at different breakpoints - different theme, font, images, and content. It's was beautiful, and creative, and fun. Lots of users saw different things and had no idea other versions were there.
    - semolino 2y ago
      What site are you referring to?
- 7bit 2y ago
  That would require a lot of GBs in libraries in the browser and a lot of processing power on the client CPU to render an image that is so unimportant that it doesn't really matter if it shows exactly what the author intended. To summarize that in three words: a useless technology. That idea is something that is only cool in theory.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    At least for LLMs, something very similar is already happening: https://huggingface.co/blog/Xenova/run-gemini-nano-in-your-browser https://huggingface.co/blog/Xenova/run-gemini-nano-in-your-b... Currently, we're definitely not there in terms of space/time tradeoffs for images, but I could imagine at least parameterized ML-based upscaling (i.e. ship a low-resolution image and possibly a textual description, have a local model upscale it to display resolution) at some point.
- ec109685 2y ago
  Similar to what Samsung does if you take a picture of the moon.
- everforward 2y ago
  Similar ideas have floated around for a while. I’ve always enjoyed the elegance of compressing things down to a start and end index of digits of Pi. It’s utterly impractical, but fun to muse about how neat it would be if it weren’t.
  - LtWorf 2y ago
    AFAIK it's not been proved that every combination does exist in π. By comparison, you could easily define a number that goes 0,123456789101112131415… and use indexes to that number. However the index would probably be larger than what you're trying to encode.
    - everforward 2y ago
      Huh, I presumed that any non-repeating irrational number would include all number sequences but I think you’re right. Even a sequence of 1 and 0 could be non-repetitive. I am curious what the compression ratios would be. I suspect the opposite, but the numbers are at a scale where my mind falters so I wouldn’t say that with any confidence. Just 64 bits can get you roughly 10^20 digits into the number, and the “reach” grows exponentially with bits. I would expect that the smaller the file, the more common its sequence is.
      - LtWorf 2y ago
        Well with my number you can at least calculate the digits at any position without needing to calculate all the digits before. Let's do it for a similar number but in binary format… a 1mb file has 2²⁰ digits. If we optimize the indexing to point to the "number" instead of the "digit"… so that the index is smaller. Magically the index is as long as the file!
Groxx 2y ago
Time Lords probably, saving us from the inevitable end of this technology path, where all data in the universe is compressed into one bit which leads to an information-theoretic black hole that destroys everything.
magicalhippo 2y ago
Reminds me of when I was like 13 and learned about CRC codes for the first time. Infinite compression here we come! Just calculate the 32bit CRC code for say 64 bits, transmit the CRC, then on the other hand just loop over all possible 64 bit numbers until you got the same CRC. So brilliant! Why wasn't this already used?! Of course, the downsides became apparent once the euphoria had faded.
- _factor 2y ago
  Even better, take a physical object and slice it precisely in a ratio that contains your data in the fraction!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lxgr 2y ago
  Very relatable! "If this MD5 hash uniquely identifies that entire movie, why would anyone need to ever send the actual... Oh, I get it." Arguably the cruelest implication of the pigeonhole principle.
Spivak 2y ago
The real version of this is Nvidia's web conferencing demo where they make a 3d model of your face and then only transfer the wireframe movements which is super clever. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQy3EU8BCmo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQy3EU8BCmo You can really feel the "compute has massively outpaced networking speed" where this kind of thing is actually practical. Maybe I'll see 10G residential in my lifetime.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  This messages comes to you via a 10Gbps, $50 residential fiber connection. The future is already here – it's just not very evenly distributed.
lxgr 2y ago
> The Sloot Digital Coding System is an alleged data sharing technique that its inventor claimed could store a complete digital movie file in 8 kilobytes of data 8 kilobytes? Rookie numbers. I'll do it in 256 bytes, as long as you're fine with a somewhat limited selection of available digital movie files ;)
- MBCook 2y ago
  I can shrink any file down to just 32 bits using my unique method. I call it the High Amplitude Shrinkage Heuristic, or H.A.S.H. It is also reversible, but only safely to the last encoded file due to quantum hyperspace entanglement of ionic bonds. H.A.S.H.ing a different file will disrupt them preventing recovery of the original data.

supriyo-biswas 2y ago

This claim itself is probably a hoax and not relevant to the article at hand; but these days with text-to-image models and browser support, you could probably do something like <img prompt="..."> and have the browser render something that matches the description, similar to the "cookbook" analogy used in the Wikipedia article.

Lorin 2y ago
That's an interesting concept, although it would generate a ton of bogomips since each client has to generate the image themselves instead of one time on the server. You'd also want "seed" and "engine" attributes to ensure all visitors see the same result.
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  You could at least push the work closer to the edge, by having genAI servers on each LAN, and in each ISP, similar to the idea of a caching web proxy before HTTPS rendered them impossible.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    Push the work closer to the edge, and multiply it by quite a lot. Generate each image many times. Why would we want this? Seems like the opposite of caching in a sense.
    - sroussey 2y ago
      If you are reading a web page on mars and bandwidth is more precious than processing power, then <img prompt=“…”> might make sense. Not so much for us on earth however.
      - roywiggins 2y ago
        This sort of thing (but applied to video) is a plot point in A Fire Upon The Deep. Vinge's term for the result is an "evocation."
    - bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
      All compression is, in a sense, the opposite of caching. You have to do more work to get the data, but you save space.
- onion2k 2y ago
  Unless you don't actually care if everyone sees the same results. So long as the generated image is approximately what you prompted for, and the content of the image is decorative so it doesn't really need to be a specific, accurate representation of something, it's fine to display a different picture for every user. One of the best uses of responsive design I've ever seen was a site that looked completely different at different breakpoints - different theme, font, images, and content. It's was beautiful, and creative, and fun. Lots of users saw different things and had no idea other versions were there.
  - semolino 2y ago
    What site are you referring to?
7bit 2y ago
That would require a lot of GBs in libraries in the browser and a lot of processing power on the client CPU to render an image that is so unimportant that it doesn't really matter if it shows exactly what the author intended. To summarize that in three words: a useless technology. That idea is something that is only cool in theory.
- lxgr 2y ago
  At least for LLMs, something very similar is already happening: https://huggingface.co/blog/Xenova/run-gemini-nano-in-your-browser https://huggingface.co/blog/Xenova/run-gemini-nano-in-your-b... Currently, we're definitely not there in terms of space/time tradeoffs for images, but I could imagine at least parameterized ML-based upscaling (i.e. ship a low-resolution image and possibly a textual description, have a local model upscale it to display resolution) at some point.
ec109685 2y ago
Similar to what Samsung does if you take a picture of the moon.
everforward 2y ago
Similar ideas have floated around for a while. I’ve always enjoyed the elegance of compressing things down to a start and end index of digits of Pi. It’s utterly impractical, but fun to muse about how neat it would be if it weren’t.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  AFAIK it's not been proved that every combination does exist in π. By comparison, you could easily define a number that goes 0,123456789101112131415… and use indexes to that number. However the index would probably be larger than what you're trying to encode.
  - everforward 2y ago
    Huh, I presumed that any non-repeating irrational number would include all number sequences but I think you’re right. Even a sequence of 1 and 0 could be non-repetitive. I am curious what the compression ratios would be. I suspect the opposite, but the numbers are at a scale where my mind falters so I wouldn’t say that with any confidence. Just 64 bits can get you roughly 10^20 digits into the number, and the “reach” grows exponentially with bits. I would expect that the smaller the file, the more common its sequence is.
    - LtWorf 2y ago
      Well with my number you can at least calculate the digits at any position without needing to calculate all the digits before. Let's do it for a similar number but in binary format… a 1mb file has 2²⁰ digits. If we optimize the indexing to point to the "number" instead of the "digit"… so that the index is smaller. Magically the index is as long as the file!

Groxx 2y ago

Time Lords probably, saving us from the inevitable end of this technology path, where all data in the universe is compressed into one bit which leads to an information-theoretic black hole that destroys everything.

magicalhippo 2y ago

Reminds me of when I was like 13 and learned about CRC codes for the first time. Infinite compression here we come! Just calculate the 32bit CRC code for say 64 bits, transmit the CRC, then on the other hand just loop over all possible 64 bit numbers until you got the same CRC. So brilliant! Why wasn't this already used?! Of course, the downsides became apparent once the euphoria had faded.

_factor 2y ago
Even better, take a physical object and slice it precisely in a ratio that contains your data in the fraction!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lxgr 2y ago
Very relatable! "If this MD5 hash uniquely identifies that entire movie, why would anyone need to ever send the actual... Oh, I get it." Arguably the cruelest implication of the pigeonhole principle.

Spivak 2y ago

The real version of this is Nvidia's web conferencing demo where they make a 3d model of your face and then only transfer the wireframe movements which is super clever. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQy3EU8BCmo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQy3EU8BCmo You can really feel the "compute has massively outpaced networking speed" where this kind of thing is actually practical. Maybe I'll see 10G residential in my lifetime.

kstrauser 2y ago
This messages comes to you via a 10Gbps, $50 residential fiber connection. The future is already here – it's just not very evenly distributed.

lxgr 2y ago

> The Sloot Digital Coding System is an alleged data sharing technique that its inventor claimed could store a complete digital movie file in 8 kilobytes of data 8 kilobytes? Rookie numbers. I'll do it in 256 bytes, as long as you're fine with a somewhat limited selection of available digital movie files ;)

MBCook 2y ago
I can shrink any file down to just 32 bits using my unique method. I call it the High Amplitude Shrinkage Heuristic, or H.A.S.H. It is also reversible, but only safely to the last encoded file due to quantum hyperspace entanglement of ionic bonds. H.A.S.H.ing a different file will disrupt them preventing recovery of the original data.