3 ms·

I remember a blog post of an MD or psychologist about Russian/Soviet psychotropic drugs that are not used or unknown in the west and used as an analogy that if

I remember a blog post of an MD or psychologist about Russian/Soviet psychotropic drugs that are not used or unknown in the west and used as an analogy that if Russia had found new elements in the periodic table, and we would not use them.

XorNot 2y ago
It might be worth considering that until very recently, Russia's military was definitely supremely capable and on-par with NATO. Russia lies. About everything. And culturally Russians have been immersed in a narrative that they're the absolute best in the world at everything, that all good ideas were originally Russian ideas (see how the narrative of LK-99 started getting modified before anything was verified). So do they have processes or techniques not used in the West? Sure it's possible: but it's also far more likely that the reason we don't use them is that the actual investigation of their effectiveness can't reproduce the results. Because no one looks up the clinical studies: they just repeat the fun narrative about big mysterious super-technology from behind the Iron Curtain. Which itself was essentially an invention of interest groups looking for funding in the West (i.e. there's was never a "missile gap" the US was going to lose). Like as noted here: you remember the story, but not any actual specific drugs or processes? Why?
- Beijinger 2y ago
  EDIT: Someone found the link: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de... I did not find the blog post anymore. But the blog linked to a pharmacy website that had tons of stuff available. A few links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenazepam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenazepam https://nah.sen.es/vmfiles/vol9/NAHV9N2202155_68EN.pdf https://nah.sen.es/vmfiles/vol9/NAHV9N2202155_68EN.pdf https://cosmicnootropic.com/blog/popular-nootropics/ https://cosmicnootropic.com/blog/popular-nootropics/ https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/psychiatry/news/archive/202010/phenibut-russian-cosmonaut-drug-you-can-buy-online-reduce-anxiety https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/psychiatry/news/archive/2020...
- Beijinger 2y ago
  "It might be worth considering that until very recently, Russia's military was definitely supremely capable and on-par with NATO." I think Russia was not on-par with NATO after it collapse, at least not in conventional warfare. They missed the electronic revolution in warfare (See US-IRAQ Gulf War I). But they are now back on par, possibly better. Their jamming, air defense and rockets are top-notch, possible better than NATOs. They can disrupt our GPS System, we can't disrupt theirs since it is much younger, speak better. As a comparison: Germany had 3000 tanks during the cold war. Now they have 300, 200 operational. Russia looses so many tanks every month, and actually builds 100-200 new ones every month. Germany had ammunition for two days of warfare. After they gave some to Ukraine, they have ammunition for one day left. Russia has been underestimated. They are back and their future looks pretty good, even with a dubious leader. They won their war: Defeat of the West? Emmanuel Todd and the Russo-Ukrainian War https://www.thearticle.com/defeat-of-the-west-emmanuel-todd-and-the-russo-ukrainian-war https://www.thearticle.com/defeat-of-the-west-emmanuel-todd-... They have energy, they are not overpopulated, they have fewer problems with immigration. In fact, they're even looking for immigrants: https://movingtorussia.ru/ru https://movingtorussia.ru/ru In the US I can smell the recession and banks will go belly up very soon: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-big-u-s-banks-have-the-most-commercial-real-estate-exposure/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-big-u-s-banks-have-th... In Germany too. Without Russian Energy their manufacturing heavy country will deindustrialize. At the same time, Russia is actively trying to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency, together with BRICS+. If successful, this will have a tremendous impact on the US. I am not a Putin troll, and I hope that I am wrong. But the future has the nasty habit of taking unexpected turns.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    They have not "won the war". Not by any stretch. That's just a pundit's plainly ideology-driven projection. The fact that this author chose to call their book The Defeat of the West, and that its main thesis is that this defeat is due to the “vaporisation of Protestantism" should give one serious pause. Perhaps not the best source to turn to for a serious, impartial military analysis.
    - 2y ago
- smsm42 2y ago
  > but it's also far more likely that the reason we don't use them is that the actual investigation of their effectiveness can't reproduce the results. Or, passing a novel approach through FDA, who are previously not familiar with it, is so prohibitively expensive that nobody wants to invest in it. And since it already has prior art, it's probably also not patentable so you can't even get back the money after you get the approval. Unless such drug can make billions as generic - which is quite rare - there's no point in investing in it, even if it works.
throwaway12287 2y ago
Link to blog post being described: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de...
knowitnone 2y ago
who cares what a blog post of an MD or psychologist says? If a new element had use, of course we would use it. Are you seriously telling me that if they discovered copper, we won't use copper?
- Beijinger 2y ago
  https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de...
- smsm42 2y ago
  > If a new element had use, of course we would use it. If we had FDA for elements, then we wouldn't because FDA for elements wouldn't approve it. That's the point of the analogy.
jhbadger 2y ago
Weird analogy. The USSR/Russia did discover new elements, and while there was a certain amount of arguing over names (as it wasn't always clear who discovered them first), there was no "not using" them because they were Russian. That isn't how science works.
- baruz 2y ago
  That’s the point of the analogy. Even though scientists in the USSR discovered certain elements, the US did not refuse to “use” them. But for pharmaceutical compounds like bromantane, this isn’t the case. An anxiolytic stimulant discovered and approved in Russia, it cannot be prescribed in the US.
  - dekhn 2y ago
    "In 1996, it was encountered as a doping agent in the 1996 Summer Olympics when several Russian athletes tested positive for it, and was subsequently placed on the World Anti-Doping Agency banned list in 1997 as a stimulant and masking agent.[10][42]"
salad-tycoon 2y ago
Many nootropics and Phenibut comes to mind. Not used is relative. FDA occasionally cracks down.

XorNot 2y ago

It might be worth considering that until very recently, Russia's military was definitely supremely capable and on-par with NATO. Russia lies. About everything. And culturally Russians have been immersed in a narrative that they're the absolute best in the world at everything, that all good ideas were originally Russian ideas (see how the narrative of LK-99 started getting modified before anything was verified). So do they have processes or techniques not used in the West? Sure it's possible: but it's also far more likely that the reason we don't use them is that the actual investigation of their effectiveness can't reproduce the results. Because no one looks up the clinical studies: they just repeat the fun narrative about big mysterious super-technology from behind the Iron Curtain. Which itself was essentially an invention of interest groups looking for funding in the West (i.e. there's was never a "missile gap" the US was going to lose). Like as noted here: you remember the story, but not any actual specific drugs or processes? Why?

Beijinger 2y ago
EDIT: Someone found the link: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de... I did not find the blog post anymore. But the blog linked to a pharmacy website that had tons of stuff available. A few links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenazepam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenazepam https://nah.sen.es/vmfiles/vol9/NAHV9N2202155_68EN.pdf https://nah.sen.es/vmfiles/vol9/NAHV9N2202155_68EN.pdf https://cosmicnootropic.com/blog/popular-nootropics/ https://cosmicnootropic.com/blog/popular-nootropics/ https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/psychiatry/news/archive/202010/phenibut-russian-cosmonaut-drug-you-can-buy-online-reduce-anxiety https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/psychiatry/news/archive/2020...
Beijinger 2y ago
"It might be worth considering that until very recently, Russia's military was definitely supremely capable and on-par with NATO." I think Russia was not on-par with NATO after it collapse, at least not in conventional warfare. They missed the electronic revolution in warfare (See US-IRAQ Gulf War I). But they are now back on par, possibly better. Their jamming, air defense and rockets are top-notch, possible better than NATOs. They can disrupt our GPS System, we can't disrupt theirs since it is much younger, speak better. As a comparison: Germany had 3000 tanks during the cold war. Now they have 300, 200 operational. Russia looses so many tanks every month, and actually builds 100-200 new ones every month. Germany had ammunition for two days of warfare. After they gave some to Ukraine, they have ammunition for one day left. Russia has been underestimated. They are back and their future looks pretty good, even with a dubious leader. They won their war: Defeat of the West? Emmanuel Todd and the Russo-Ukrainian War https://www.thearticle.com/defeat-of-the-west-emmanuel-todd-and-the-russo-ukrainian-war https://www.thearticle.com/defeat-of-the-west-emmanuel-todd-... They have energy, they are not overpopulated, they have fewer problems with immigration. In fact, they're even looking for immigrants: https://movingtorussia.ru/ru https://movingtorussia.ru/ru In the US I can smell the recession and banks will go belly up very soon: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-big-u-s-banks-have-the-most-commercial-real-estate-exposure/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/which-big-u-s-banks-have-th... In Germany too. Without Russian Energy their manufacturing heavy country will deindustrialize. At the same time, Russia is actively trying to replace the US Dollar as the world reserve currency, together with BRICS+. If successful, this will have a tremendous impact on the US. I am not a Putin troll, and I hope that I am wrong. But the future has the nasty habit of taking unexpected turns.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  They have not "won the war". Not by any stretch. That's just a pundit's plainly ideology-driven projection. The fact that this author chose to call their book The Defeat of the West, and that its main thesis is that this defeat is due to the “vaporisation of Protestantism" should give one serious pause. Perhaps not the best source to turn to for a serious, impartial military analysis.
  - 2y ago
smsm42 2y ago
> but it's also far more likely that the reason we don't use them is that the actual investigation of their effectiveness can't reproduce the results. Or, passing a novel approach through FDA, who are previously not familiar with it, is so prohibitively expensive that nobody wants to invest in it. And since it already has prior art, it's probably also not patentable so you can't even get back the money after you get the approval. Unless such drug can make billions as generic - which is quite rare - there's no point in investing in it, even if it works.

throwaway12287 2y ago

Link to blog post being described: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de...

knowitnone 2y ago

who cares what a blog post of an MD or psychologist says? If a new element had use, of course we would use it. Are you seriously telling me that if they discovered copper, we won't use copper?

Beijinger 2y ago
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/an-iron-curtain-has-de...
smsm42 2y ago
> If a new element had use, of course we would use it. If we had FDA for elements, then we wouldn't because FDA for elements wouldn't approve it. That's the point of the analogy.

jhbadger 2y ago

Weird analogy. The USSR/Russia did discover new elements, and while there was a certain amount of arguing over names (as it wasn't always clear who discovered them first), there was no "not using" them because they were Russian. That isn't how science works.

baruz 2y ago
That’s the point of the analogy. Even though scientists in the USSR discovered certain elements, the US did not refuse to “use” them. But for pharmaceutical compounds like bromantane, this isn’t the case. An anxiolytic stimulant discovered and approved in Russia, it cannot be prescribed in the US.
- dekhn 2y ago
  "In 1996, it was encountered as a doping agent in the 1996 Summer Olympics when several Russian athletes tested positive for it, and was subsequently placed on the World Anti-Doping Agency banned list in 1997 as a stimulant and masking agent.[10][42]"

salad-tycoon 2y ago

Many nootropics and Phenibut comes to mind. Not used is relative. FDA occasionally cracks down.