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Four Thieves Vinegar Collective – Harm Reduction for the Living
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Beijinger 2y ago[flagged]
- samtho 2y agoI am legitimately unsure why you felt the need to make this comment. If you were uncomfortable posting this it here because you think that someone else might take it an endorsement, then why did you post it? People post things they find interesting and disagree with all the time. What are you afraid of?
- Beijinger 2y agoThis is hackernews. I had problems in the past that people mistake this for an endorsement.
- zero-sharp 2y agoHealthcare in the US is terrible, sure. And making medicine more accessible is a great thing. But I feel like the term "right to repair" is being hijacked here. A manufacturer that creates a piece of technology can theoretically publish repair instructions and provide parts (at a reasonable cost). This is different than the issue of accessibility in the drug space? Maybe I'm making a fuss over nothing, but it just stood out to me.
- jstanley 2y agoWhy is it different?
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoWho is the manufacturer of the item to be repaired? How is the manufacturer preventing repair? What design decisions artificially limit repair to parties other than the manufacturer? How does the manufacturer use existing regulation (eg DMCA or copyright) to prevent repair or access to information necessary for repair. All of these questions make sense for right to repair, and are mostly nonsensical in this case, since drug companies don’t manufacture bodies.
- fnordpiglet 2y agoEssentially the instructions and tools to repair your own body are restricted and only accessible to those who can afford to pay for the health care systems processes. Have an obvious infection? Spend a ton of money going to a doctor to get a prescription to give to a pharmacy to dispense at highly marked up substance that’s easy to manufacturer at a tiny unit cost. You had no right to cure your own infection. You had to pay dozens of middle men for something straight forward. I’d note that in most of the world you would just go buy the antibiotics directly from a pharmacy for almost nothing. Now - I’m not saying self medicating with antibiotics is either good for you or the world, I’m saying at least in the US, you don’t have that right.
- mnau 2y agoPlease stop trying to co-opt established term for your pet cause.
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoBelieve me, I agree that this is a problem. I have lived in other countries, and have seen how broken certain aspects of US healthcare are especially with regards to cost. These problems are just totally different than “right to repair” if in no other way than that the legal solutions would be completely different. For example any right to repair legislation would have no bearing on drug prices.
- grayhatter 2y ago
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoI agree this is a totally different thing. It definitely feels like they are trying to make use of the feelings people have about the right to repair movement for their own agenda. Some might say co-opt, others riff off of. I can see that there are some similarities, but power struggle and regulatory situations are totally different.
- kevmo 2y agoIf you just make a post about healthcare in the USA being awful, it's highly likely to be removed/booted off the front page. Call it a "right to repair", though, and you're hitting the sweet spot for HN.
- AlbertCory 2y agoExactly. They've taken a popular term and applied it where it doesn't fit. You may have a "right to repair" something you bought. You didn't buy your body. Drug safety is an old, old issue. We can argue about how it's applied without dragging in popular phrases that don't apply.
- pennybanks 2y agoi mean we could. but it seems like you wouldnt want that since your brining it up yourself. seems very like a very easy thing to ignore since it doesnt seem any malicious. unless there are trademarks im not aware of.
- partomniscient 2y ago>You didn't buy your body. So what? You're still responsible for it - its nourishment and maintenance. I agree 'right to repair' seems a little off, but its a subset of 'right of self-determination', i.e. basic liberty, which from the outside looking in is preached about a lot but not very practiced in the US.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoInteresting concept. I love the idea of a right to repair for our body.
- ZunarJ5 2y agoI just saw this writeup on them: https://www.404media.co/email/63ca5568-c610-4489-9bfc-7791804e9535/ https://www.404media.co/email/63ca5568-c610-4489-9bfc-779180...
- Apfel 2y agoSaw these guys talk at DEFCON this year, absolutely fantastic presentation. It was so powerful and important that I'd actually recommend watching it before pretty much everything else from the con.
- greyface- 2y agoRecording here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rQklSmI_F0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rQklSmI_F0
- polishdude20 2y agoI've watched a bunch of this. Does he mention where to get the precursors to the medicines he's trying to make?
- salad-tycoon 2y agoIt’s in ChemHacktica buyables afaict which looks similar to askcos MIT. Played around with it, the products I looked up would be extraordinarily expensive. Guess that’s not a surprise if you are buying 10mg of XYZ at a time vs the “100 tons” they probably buy for labs in China. Haven’t watched video yet, besides being fun what is the use of this? I see in the defcon video a mention of hep c treatment which , last I heard was something 50,000 usd (looking it up ranges 23k-80k) so I guess that makes sense vs trying to make bathtub antibiotics and steroids. Fun, I’m probably on another “list” now.
- michaelbuckbee 2y agoI'm not a big fan of getting dental work done, much less "DIY home dental" so was pretty skeptical of what they could possibly be doing and was really pleasantly surprised by their tooth seal instructions. They're taking a somewhat well-known cavity prevention and enamel remineralization treatment that has the unfortunate side effect of turning your teeth black and replicating steps from a study to avoid that. One of several studies they link to: https://www.scielo.br/j/bdj/a/rHSG9jRQDdY7sCFZzpNXYXy/?lang=en https://www.scielo.br/j/bdj/a/rHSG9jRQDdY7sCFZzpNXYXy/?lang=...
- aithrowaway1987 2y ago[flagged]
- jauer 2y agoCould you elaborate on what you find “vile and disgusting“ about that meme?
- robodale 2y agoMy wife is a clinical pharmacist (rounds with medical doctors and provides detailed patient analysis of their drug needs). This article blew her mind.
- oidar 2y agoIn what way?
- easyThrowaway 2y agoNever felt too much at ease with the DIY medicine arguments. I mean, I agree on principle with the idea of not being at the whims of the pharmaceutical industry, but they always give me the feeling of being just one step away from going fully "Cancer/HIV is caused by mobile phones and you can cure them with vitamin C" and "Covid is a big pharma conspiracy" kinda people.
- vitehozonage 2y agoI think it's very sad and a big problem that people like you don't have the capacity/willingness to appreciate nuance
- throwaway48476 2y agoA lot of people with rare conditions are pretty much forced to become experts on it to where they're reading the literature and going to conferences. The medical community isn't set up to help you if you have an uncommon issue and aren't a relentless self advocate.
- im3w1l 2y agoSome people could manage their health much better than the current system. Other people would totally try to cure their cancer with vitamin c. A parallel that comes to mind is "accredited investors". These are people that have chosen to opt out of the guardrails and been allowed to by fulfilling certain criteria. Maybe something like that would make sense for medicine.
- lores 2y agoIt's starting to be the case. Patients with terminal cancer can opt into experimental treatments.
- pstuart 2y agoLots of existing medicine is a crap shoot -- look at the possible side effects many of them have (including death). I don't believe in the conspiracies you listed, but I absolutely believe there are plenty of conspiracies in plain sight (AMA restricting the number of doctors and fighting against single payer, the FDA being in bed with big pharma, etc). We all should have the right to control our own bodies (which extends to recreational chemicals). For those compounds that are not yet vetted, we should have the right to make informed choices.
- ldjkfkdsjnv 2y agoMost medicine is complete bullshit, doctors have a specific set of protocols they have to follow to avoid mal practice. There is no nuance. Most pills will cause far more damage in long term dependency and side effects than they will solve. ESPECIALLY for psychiatric conditions. Medicine mostly makes sense with broken bones and physical surgeries. Don't even get me started on dentistry. For years, I struggled with severe dental issues, leading to advanced gum disease. Dentists told me I’d eventually need tooth extractions or major gum surgery. I’ve always hated going to the dentist. Two years ago, I decided to take control of my own dental care. I bought a dental scaler kit online and started removing plaque from the backs of my teeth. I learned the proper technique by watching YouTube videos and now do this about once a week. The results have been incredible—my teeth are spotless, I have no gum bleeding, and I haven’t had any cavities. I still go in once a year for a professional cleaning of harder-to-reach areas like my molars. If you google whether you can do this, the internet is full of large WARNING YOU CANNOT SCRAPE PLAQUE OFF YOUR TEETH. Every single website is full of dentists screaming that you cant clean your own mouth. This is clearly bullshit, you can actually just scrape it off from the comfort of your own home. There's clearly some risk, but if youre an intelligent adult, you can do it.
- atentaten 2y agoAny particular kit and/or videos you recommend?
- rqtwteye 2y agoI also have my doubts about dentist advice after seeing the dramatically positive effects a waterpik and oil pulling had on me and several other people I know. No gum problems, less sensitive teeth. Due to several moves and my laziness I didnt go to a dentist for cleaning for more than five years. Last year I went again and had zero problems. Not even much plaque. I wonder why dentists don’t tell everybody to get a waterpik first before any other treatments.
- nicolas_t 2y agoI've actually had multiple dentists either telling me to get a waterpik or praising me for having one. That was in China (Japanese dentist though) and in France.
- ethanol-brain 2y agoIt sounds interesting, but it really feels like they are downplaying the risks here. I'd be hesitant to put anything mixed in a DIY device with off the shelf peristaltic pumps into my body without some additional analysis. If something like automated analysis was a possibility, then maybe this would be more alluring.
- XorNot 2y agoYep: as someone with a chemistry background, synthesis is the easy part. Purification and analysis? That's the hard part. Not getting screwed by additives, coatings or contamination? Thats what the big bucks in lab gear cost (i.e. a metered dispensing pump comes with a list of every element which touches the dispensed fluid).
- gradschoolfail 2y agoMixael was a physicist. A chemnarchist’s easiest hard problem is probably going to be an xray scope for tha masses But, I hear FCC is orders of magnitude more effective, eg, so maybe a portable massspec is where its going to be? https://news.mit.edu/2024/researchers-3d-print-key-components-affordable-mass-spectrometer-0404 https://news.mit.edu/2024/researchers-3d-print-key-component... ( >This work was supported by Empiriko Corporation.
- lubujackson 2y agoJust seeing this for the first time, and I love the hacker ethos displayed here. Obviously there are Risks Involved especially for health care, but I appreciate the well-researched and documented reasoning behind their solutions. Let the people control their own lives a bit more. To me, the hacker mentality has, at its root, been about more about shortcutting red tape and discarding the guardrails the gov't put in place "for your own good". Often that comes hand in hand with rule breaking and illegal actions. But since healthcare has been so fully co-opted by moneyed interests it is good to see things like this and "medical vacations" grow in popularity - not because they are great solutions but because they underline how thoroughly the current system has screwed the pooch and will hopefully lead to real change.
- AlbertCory 2y agoI know someone whose wife was judged terminal, and he took her to Mexico for some unapproved cancer therapies. This is not a rich guy. (She's dead now, as you might have guessed.)
- petermcneeley 2y ago>judged terminal ... She's dead now What is the intended message of this short story?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- stavros 2y ago"Don't go to Mexico".
- dennis_jeeves2 2y agoOr if you go to Mexico you die.
- woleium 2y ago
- avgDev 2y agoThere is a group that is producing medication that has yet to hit the market for self use. Someone got a hold of a patent, found a chemist and a lab willing to test the substance. I'm waiting for the actual medication to hit the market but if the FDA approval takes a long time, I will make the med myself. The substance in the medication has been used orally for a long time with a good safety profile and it was discovered that it can help regenerate nerves. Maybe I made all of this up to sound cool on the internet. If you know what I mean.
- QuantumGood 2y agoThe FDA does not take information from other countries into account much. EDIT: Foreign approval and use history can be supportive information in an FDA review process, but are not determinative factors for U.S. approval. For example, Promethazine has been popular in the UK for a very long time (ingredient in UK Sominex), but its not approved in the U.S. as a sleep aid. InHousePharmacy.vu/search.aspx?searchterm=promethazine
- lenerdenator 2y agoSeems rather myopic to me. We already share critical intelligence with the Five Eyes countries; why not share medication safety/efficacy information with them too?
- NetworkPerson 2y agoBecause then you can’t sue someone as easily in the US when you find out the drug popular in Europe actually caused cancer 50 years later. The US has to be sure it’s completely safe. Or that it will make enough money to outweigh the lawsuits later…
- mnau 2y ago> The US has to be sure it’s completely safe. That doesn't make sense to me, who does US refer to in this case? The manufacturer is the one that would be sued and they generally only want to expediate process. FDA is one that aproves/denies application. They wouldn't get sued for using data from other countries (or at least no more that they already are).
- paulddraper 2y agoFish antibiotics are amazingly cheap sources of an amoxicillin.
- LinuxBender 2y agoMany stores are being forced to pull it for that reason. The prepping community used to promote it and that caught the attention of the wrong people. One alternative are a set of doctors doing very low friction online consulting and prescribing, some even selling kits with assorted antibiotics but they are also getting pressured to stop.
- _odey 2y ago"From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass that you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal…" This is basically what was going through my mind while browsing this website ;)
- lenerdenator 2y agoThis just feels like drug dealing with a far more benevolent motivation. I agree that it should ultimately be up to the person but there's a lot of ways this could go wrong. Remember, you're putting these substances in your body. Make damned sure you trust the person you got them from. Like, "I would trust you to raise my child in the event of my death" levels of trust.
- fph 2y agoIsn't the point of DIY medicine that you are the person making the drugs?
- lenerdenator 2y agoThen make sure you trust the guy you got the instructions, ingredients, and equipment from.
- Ekaros 2y agoConsidering the issues with snake oil. And well what currently is marketed as magic cures for various things, I rather not trust most instructions...
- tcdent 2y ago> Make damned sure you trust the person you got them from. Like, "I would trust you to raise my child in the event of my death" levels of trust. Do most people feel this way about formalized medical practitioners today?
- lenerdenator 2y agoIn theory they go through a lot of training and regulation to make sure that the goons stay out. It's not 100% effective, but I do trust my PCP more than a guy in Midtown selling PCP.
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
- samtho 2y ago[flagged]
- grayhatter 2y ago[flagged]
- saxonww 2y agoI think there's a balance that some people don't appreciate. Hacking your health has some additional risk vs. some external system or process; your health is often irreplaceable, and you might not get a second chance if you screw it up. I think you should be a little more careful with DIY pharma than you would other things. And I think you should be very careful about evangelizing it to other people. It is the case that some people get so wrapped up in overcoming authority that it becomes the driving factor behind what they support and what choices they make. It's essentially the same thing you say you're disgusted with: it's not about figuring out how and why, it's wanting to be right and the authority to be wrong. The exact same behavior, just from the other side of the fence. Call this a strawman if you want, but I'm still asserting it's fact. This is why I don't immediately see groups like four thieves vinegar as positive. I don't know if the stuff they're doing actually works or not. I suspect that you don't know this either. It might work. They assert that it's simple and just use their stuff and boom, daraprim (or whatever). But what happens if it doesn't? The result is not a failure to adapt some device to do something it wasn't intended to do, or get data from a device the manufacturer would rather sell, it's direct impact to your health. Specific to their microlab, my immediate questions are around sanitizing or disinfecting it. I have skimmed the documentation and parts list. They recommend using 'water'. There's no discussion about distilled vs. deionized vs. tap water. There's nothing here about ensuring the mason jars and tubing are clean to any particular standard. I haven't seen any discussion yet about cleaning the reactor between batches, in terms of ensuring there is no residue from the prior batch. I sure hope I've just missed it, or this is called out as a 'human tasks' in each recipe. Contamination is ok (ish) with a Coca-Cola Freestyle machine at McDonald's. You can tolerate your Coke tasting like 8 other drinks. I don't think it's OK when making sofosbuvir. I think you should be able to do just about whatever you want to with your own body. Please be careful. But I don't think you should be able to set yourself up as a counterculture medical authority and not have people ask questions about it, especially because a lot of people _won't_ ask questions.
- nicolas_t 2y agoOk, so I was interested in https://fourthievesvinegar.org/tooth-seal/ https://fourthievesvinegar.org/tooth-seal/ Was happy that they say it's completely safe but... there's no linked study that proves it's safe. On what basis is it safe? There's been multiple recent studies linking higher fluoride amount with reduced intelligence in children. How is that different?
- basch 2y agoI don't believe you are supposed to ingest the tooth sealant.
- nicolas_t 2y agoWell yes and they do mention you shouldn't leak it but given that it's on your teeth, how much leaches? Given that it degrades over a year
- literallycancer 2y agoThe fluoride added to the drinking water in the US exposes you to many more times than using a fluoride tooth paste, so any leeching from this is likely inconsequential. There's also papers linked in the website and it appears that it's an improved version of the silver diamine fluoride treatment, which a quick search reveals is FDA approved.
- grayhatter 2y agoit's different because the risk analysis for individual decisions is completely disparate from the risk analysis of policy decisions. How is it connected? Also I'd be interested in you're citation for the fluoride assertion, the last I remember that was a conspiracy theory and the actual published research was mixed and inconclusive?
- nicolas_t 2y ago> it's different because the risk analysis for individual decisions is completely disparate from the risk analysis of policy decisions. That's true, but when doing the risk analysis for individual decisions, it helps to have actual data to make that analysis. The website says it's safe without justification to say why it's safe, how it's similar to known-safe mechanism, etc.. "Trust me bro it's safe" is not exactly confidence inducing. > Also I'd be interested in you're citation for the fluoride assertion, the last I remember that was a conspiracy theory and the actual published research was mixed and inconclusive? There's this recent report. This is for countries where children received fluoride exposure amounts higher than 1.5 mg fluoride/L of drinking water which is higher than what you'd get in the US. https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/completed/fluoride https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/... Most of the studies that show lower IQ are in Canada, China, India, Iran, Pakistan, and Mexico where those levels can be reached. Example of studies: - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18695947/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18695947/ - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/
- thrance 2y agoThis looks more like a libertarian nightmare than an anarchist dream. I couldn't care less what you inject your body with, and will always support open science, but this is no solution to the USA's disastrous healthcare system. The real "right to repair your body" necessarily involves a socialized healthcare system, like in the rest of the West.
- cdev_gl 2y agoAs much as I'd love a long-term solution to dental cavities, I'm leery of any treatment using silver nanoparticles, which can cross the blood brain barrier and accumulate in the brain, where they've been shown (in mice and in human models) to contribute to neurodegenerative diseases. I'm not a biologist or chemist, so I don't know enough to judge if the method listed here is completely safe, but even a cursory google shows cause to be concerned: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17435390.2018.1540728#d1e298 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17435390.2018.1...
- HybridCurve 2y agoWhile I can appreciate some of the intent to make certain healthcare more accessible, it is never a good idea to have anyone inexperienced attempt to perform some of the reactions required to synthesize medicines. This should always be done by experienced individuals with quality reagents and the proper lab equipment. While it might be easy to substitute a mason jar for a proper glass reaction vessel it is not so simple to find a substitute for a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer in the back of your pantry. IMO, The test equipment required to analyze the results of the reactions is generally most cost prohibitive aspect of this type of 'research'. And this is where I have a problem with these guys: I don't see any plans available for building any of that. Building many of these devices is not out of reach for a skilled individual, and it makes more sense to me that this equipment should more readily accessible than a glorified Keurig machine for drugs. This kind of arrogance and lack of respect for the discipline required in organic chemistry is going to result is someone getting hurt.
- Onavo 2y agoI don't understand why they even bother reinventing the wheel. Biotech and lab techs aren't being paid FAANG salaries. They are hardly more expensive than minimum wage employees. Just hire some and get them to do the actual experiments.
- indrora 2y agoMany have their hands tied. In the biopharma industry, there are strict NDAs and well enforced noncompetes that make it hard to move throughout the industry and sometimes even talk about the work. I work today with someone who interned with Gilead. According to him, his NDA lasts until 2099 and covers "Anything and everything said, heard, seen, imagined or done" while under their employ that hasn't been made 100% public. His resume has just one line entry: "Intern, lab tech. Details NDA."
- difosfor 2y agoAren't such NDAs illegal in countries like the Netherlands (e.g EU)? I wonder how they deal with that.
- knowitnone 2y agoWe've always had the right to repair our body. We've just not always had the tools. My personal view on this is rather to opensource the tools like ultrasound, MRI, heart monitor, etc. This would give the people the tools to help diagnose issues without needing a doctor involved. It is taking a year just to see a doctor.
- ajb 2y agoQuestion from a non chemist: Ok so you do some chemistry and produce a vial of supposed medicine, how do you tell that you didn't fuck up and produce something toxic? I guess a modern lab would just stick the result in a gas chromatograph or something but you're not going to have one at home. I vaguely recall (from, er, Sherlock Holmes) that old school analytic chemistry could figure out what an unknown chemical with cheap reactions and tests, but does anyone even know how to do that any more? Is it automatable?
- Etheryte 2y agoThe old school way was basically try a reaction, see if it matches a group of chemicals. Try another, see what you get. You can only close in on a reasonably accurate guess if what you're working on is fairly simple. Otherwise you'll be stuck in a local maxima of has this group, doesn't have that group, without the ability to get any better resolution.
- ekianjo 2y agotitration with reagents is a good start. you can also check for the levels of expected impurities this way.
- at_a_remove 2y agoIt really depends on the chemical. I advise anyone interested in pharmaceuticals to read The Old Vegetable Neurotics: Hemlock, Opium, Belladonna and Henbane, Their Physiological Action and Therapeutical Use Alone and in Combination, from the 1860s, I think. If you read between the lines, it is the story of a doctor who is immensely frustrated with the impurities of some common medicines, not knowing what you were getting, was this the actual chemical doing the job, and so forth. He proceeds to examine each part of the plant (leaves, stems, roots, flowers, and so on) to see which gives the best concentration. He then works at extracting exactly what he wants, very carefully. Then he tests tiny amounts of various rodents, then his dog, then himself, working to determine an appropriate dosage. It's quite impressive and hardcore. You can feel this man's annoyance at the state of things and his passion to declare, "I'd rather just find this out now instead of waiting for everyone to keep fiddling about." With a small room and some glassware you could also do this. Now, it wouldn't be simple, and to be honest the various units used are a hot mess, but the basic principles are there. Now, automatable is a matter of degree. Real chemists have whole flowcharts of "do this, do that next, now this other thing" to detect the presence of a particular sought-for thing, but that does not prove a negative, you do not know what else might be present. That's the real rub and why the focus of so much chemistry is on extraction and purification.
- sizzle 2y agoGiving me ToTSE vibes, the ‘better living through chemistry’ subforum and anarchist cookbook really unlocked my young mind back in the day. Anyone else go on ToTSE?
- Citizen8396 2y agoRead, Know, Do
- kotaKat 2y agoI remember when everyone was going crazy for the 'service mode' hack on vending machines that only let you see sales when they were locked shut... something something Bad Ideas forum.
- sizzle 2y agoI thought it let you change the price of an item lower or get free dispenses? I remember reading that! It got me interested in the code for machines and how to exploit hardware. Really good for my budding mind and future career in tech.
- kotaKat 2y agoOnly if the door were open. The 4-2-3-1, when locked, only displayed sales data. You had to pop the T-handle open and push another button to go into Service Programming to actually set prices with the front-panel buttons. At the same time, all my local vending machines were dispensing with the old tubular locks - they all went to funky keyless remotes to unlock machines.
- chkaloon 2y agoSo if they are going to do this, can we get a signed affidavit from then that they will not call 911 and use taxpayer funds for a transport to the local ER when things go south? If so, then I'm all for it.
- kbos87 2y agoA lot of the criticism I'm seeing isn't balanced against the fact that a huge number of people die every day (in developed nations including mine) because of their inability to pay has hindered their access to medications and procedures.
- at_a_remove 2y agoThis is interesting. The abortion section doesn't seem to mention ye olde menstrual extraction. Some decades ago, I believe the early seventies, some feminists figured out how to basically get the whole "eject the sloughed menstrual tissues" part of the cycle over with in a simple procedure, rather than enduring the days of cramps, which I know make some women quite miserable, even debilitated. This can also serve as a first trimester abortion.
- jtdev 2y ago[dead]
- jtdev 2y ago[dead]
- Andy101 2y ago[dead]
- gradschoolfail 2y agoGoing by the army camou and the logo, i have a few suggestions for his tv friendly moniker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Magnus_von_Hell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Magnus_von_Hell
- dennis_jeeves2 2y agoMay their tribe increase...