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> Most countries have some sort of censorship. This is a notable area where the US is an exception, and is significantly more free than other western countries

> Most countries have some sort of censorship. This is a notable area where the US is an exception, and is significantly more free than other western countries. No need to worry about art or materials being censored here, at least outside of specific contexts like some states banning books from schools.

chgs 2y ago
No it’s not. The US is consistently banning free speech - including are you rightly say banning books in schools. It’s just that the restrictions the US has are determined by Americans to be the right levels and other restrictions (for example laws against glorifying nazism) are the wrong levels. The sad thing is Americans believe the propaganda that they have freedom and nowhere else does and therefore their restrictions on speech aren’t real but others are.
- j-bos 2y ago
  When was the last time someone in the US was arrested for hate speech?
- Hizonner 2y ago
  The US "levels" are quite a bit lower than almost anybody else's "levels".
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  My school library didn't have any of the hardy boys. Was it banned?
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  > No it’s not. The US is consistently banning free speech - including are you rightly say banning books in schools. Some states are doing that at a state level in limited contexts. Individuals are still free to post or publish whatever they want. > It’s just that the restrictions the US has are determined by Americans to be the right levels and other restrictions (for example laws against glorifying nazism) are the wrong levels. No, it's that in the US this kind of freedom is significantly more protected and culturally important. > The sad thing is Americans believe the propaganda that they have freedom and nowhere else does and therefore their restrictions on speech aren’t real but others are. I would say the sad thing is anti-US sentiment can be so high that people won't debate something like this in good faith and look at the various cases and histories.
  - stoperaticless 2y ago
    Isn’t it too early to declare anti-US sentiment here? Challenge one: Could it be that previous commenter touched certain dogma? (One possible definition from Wikipedia: “Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held definitively and without the possibility of reform”) Challenge two: please try to stretch the definition of “censorship” a bit till you can say that USA has SOME censorship, maybe in disguise. (One possible definition from Wikipedia: “Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information.”) (No need to report results or reply / just try the exercise for elasticity of the mind) BTW. A bit related, hopefully interesting, random fact you did not ask for: “Freedom” is defined quite differently by people in different countries. While the U.S. often focuses on freedom from government interference, in France, freedom also includes the idea that the government has a role in ensuring social justice and protecting individual rights, and in Baltic countries the freedom usually means freedom from a certain country.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      > Isn’t it too early to declare anti-US sentiment here? Maybe, but in my experience it's usually the dominating factor. Anti-US sentiment can be high, and a lot of people from western countries are skeptical that the US can be any more free than their own in any capacity. > Challenge one: Could it be that previous commenter touched certain dogma? I don't believe so. The comment I replied to was using state schools banning some books as an example, even though I mention that in my comment and explain why it doesn't apply. You'd have to be clear on what you think the dogma here might be, but whatever it may be I'm confident my position is backed by facts and reason. > Challenge two: please try to stretch the definition of “censorship” a bit till you can say that USA has SOME censorship, maybe in disguise. I never claimed the US has no censorship, just that it has a lot more freedom due to cultural and legal reasons in contexts like we are discussing here. > No need to report results or reply / just try the exercise for elasticity of the mind) Critical thinking is an important step in reasoning and a great way to keep a mind sharp, for sure. > “Freedom” is defined quite differently by people in different countries. While the U.S. often focuses on freedom from government interference, in France, freedom also includes the idea that the government has a role in ensuring social justice and protecting individual rights, and in Baltic countries the freedom usually means freedom from a certain country. That is interesting. I would say that latter definition applies in the US as well though. For example, we all expect to be free of crime due to police and such, even if that expectation is not always met.
immibis 2y ago
That is simply incorrect. Did you see the indictment against several unregistered Russian foreign agents to put them in jail for posting Russian propaganda to YouTube?
- cubefox 2y ago
  He said "the US is [...] significantly more free than other western countries". Do you deny this is true?
  - stoperaticless 2y ago
    Yes. Change “significantly” to “technically” or at least to “”, and then I will agree with the statement.
    - cubefox 2y ago
      I think you are wrong and I'm not from the US.
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  The US dismantling a company they allege was being used as a weapon by a hostile country is different from the government preventing access to content that whoever is in charge doesn't personally like.
jltsiren 2y ago
Only in the narrow sense, where freedom of speech is only about the lack of government censorship. But in the wider sense, where censorship may also be due to business interests or cultural and societal pressure, I haven't seen any real differences between freedom of speech in the US and the European countries I'm familiar with.
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  What would be some examples of voluntary censorship from large organizations due to business interests or cultural and societal pressure and not due to government censorship?
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Consider the content policies for popular social media platforms. Consider the platform unilaterally closing your account, which may be tied to many aspects of your life. Remember the cancel culture people used to talk about a few years ago. Think about the controversy around the Gaza war, with people on both sides being afraid to speak their minds due to potential consequences. While the government may not arrest you, the consequences of expressing your opinions can still be excessive.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      That's true, but I don't think the US is any worse than this than say EU or Anglosphere countries, and indeed I'd still say it would be better than most countries just because of that particular freedom being more culturally significant. If I read your original comment right, you were agreeing that the US might be ahead as far as government censorship but not as far as the types you list here, is that correct?
  - stoperaticless 2y ago
    First thing comming to mind : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

chgs 2y ago

No it’s not. The US is consistently banning free speech - including are you rightly say banning books in schools. It’s just that the restrictions the US has are determined by Americans to be the right levels and other restrictions (for example laws against glorifying nazism) are the wrong levels. The sad thing is Americans believe the propaganda that they have freedom and nowhere else does and therefore their restrictions on speech aren’t real but others are.

j-bos 2y ago
When was the last time someone in the US was arrested for hate speech?
Hizonner 2y ago
The US "levels" are quite a bit lower than almost anybody else's "levels".
throwaway48476 2y ago
My school library didn't have any of the hardy boys. Was it banned?
ruthmarx 2y ago
> No it’s not. The US is consistently banning free speech - including are you rightly say banning books in schools. Some states are doing that at a state level in limited contexts. Individuals are still free to post or publish whatever they want. > It’s just that the restrictions the US has are determined by Americans to be the right levels and other restrictions (for example laws against glorifying nazism) are the wrong levels. No, it's that in the US this kind of freedom is significantly more protected and culturally important. > The sad thing is Americans believe the propaganda that they have freedom and nowhere else does and therefore their restrictions on speech aren’t real but others are. I would say the sad thing is anti-US sentiment can be so high that people won't debate something like this in good faith and look at the various cases and histories.
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  Isn’t it too early to declare anti-US sentiment here? Challenge one: Could it be that previous commenter touched certain dogma? (One possible definition from Wikipedia: “Dogma, in its broadest sense, is any belief held definitively and without the possibility of reform”) Challenge two: please try to stretch the definition of “censorship” a bit till you can say that USA has SOME censorship, maybe in disguise. (One possible definition from Wikipedia: “Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information.”) (No need to report results or reply / just try the exercise for elasticity of the mind) BTW. A bit related, hopefully interesting, random fact you did not ask for: “Freedom” is defined quite differently by people in different countries. While the U.S. often focuses on freedom from government interference, in France, freedom also includes the idea that the government has a role in ensuring social justice and protecting individual rights, and in Baltic countries the freedom usually means freedom from a certain country.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    > Isn’t it too early to declare anti-US sentiment here? Maybe, but in my experience it's usually the dominating factor. Anti-US sentiment can be high, and a lot of people from western countries are skeptical that the US can be any more free than their own in any capacity. > Challenge one: Could it be that previous commenter touched certain dogma? I don't believe so. The comment I replied to was using state schools banning some books as an example, even though I mention that in my comment and explain why it doesn't apply. You'd have to be clear on what you think the dogma here might be, but whatever it may be I'm confident my position is backed by facts and reason. > Challenge two: please try to stretch the definition of “censorship” a bit till you can say that USA has SOME censorship, maybe in disguise. I never claimed the US has no censorship, just that it has a lot more freedom due to cultural and legal reasons in contexts like we are discussing here. > No need to report results or reply / just try the exercise for elasticity of the mind) Critical thinking is an important step in reasoning and a great way to keep a mind sharp, for sure. > “Freedom” is defined quite differently by people in different countries. While the U.S. often focuses on freedom from government interference, in France, freedom also includes the idea that the government has a role in ensuring social justice and protecting individual rights, and in Baltic countries the freedom usually means freedom from a certain country. That is interesting. I would say that latter definition applies in the US as well though. For example, we all expect to be free of crime due to police and such, even if that expectation is not always met.

immibis 2y ago

That is simply incorrect. Did you see the indictment against several unregistered Russian foreign agents to put them in jail for posting Russian propaganda to YouTube?

cubefox 2y ago
He said "the US is [...] significantly more free than other western countries". Do you deny this is true?
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  Yes. Change “significantly” to “technically” or at least to “”, and then I will agree with the statement.
  - cubefox 2y ago
    I think you are wrong and I'm not from the US.
ruthmarx 2y ago
The US dismantling a company they allege was being used as a weapon by a hostile country is different from the government preventing access to content that whoever is in charge doesn't personally like.

jltsiren 2y ago

Only in the narrow sense, where freedom of speech is only about the lack of government censorship. But in the wider sense, where censorship may also be due to business interests or cultural and societal pressure, I haven't seen any real differences between freedom of speech in the US and the European countries I'm familiar with.

ruthmarx 2y ago
What would be some examples of voluntary censorship from large organizations due to business interests or cultural and societal pressure and not due to government censorship?
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Consider the content policies for popular social media platforms. Consider the platform unilaterally closing your account, which may be tied to many aspects of your life. Remember the cancel culture people used to talk about a few years ago. Think about the controversy around the Gaza war, with people on both sides being afraid to speak their minds due to potential consequences. While the government may not arrest you, the consequences of expressing your opinions can still be excessive.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    That's true, but I don't think the US is any worse than this than say EU or Anglosphere countries, and indeed I'd still say it would be better than most countries just because of that particular freedom being more culturally significant. If I read your original comment right, you were agreeing that the US might be ahead as far as government censorship but not as far as the types you list here, is that correct?
- stoperaticless 2y ago
  First thing comming to mind : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture