5 ms·

Electric trains have been around and widely adopted for more than 100 years. What is novel about these?

by 39896880 2y ago

rmason 2y ago
Electric powered trains are run by diesel engines to produce the electricity, the Giga train uses batteries like an EV.
- fragmede 2y ago
  or by a third rail or overhead wire
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Batteries are cool PR, but wouldn't it be better for a train to not have to accelerate all the mass of the batteries, and just use wires overhead to deliver power?
    - fragmede 2y ago
      "just" run high powered wires with enough energy to move an entire train for the entire length of the track? and deal with having a coupling system to the train? obviously since it's been done it's feasible, but I think you're discounting how much work that is to build and maintain. I'm not sure what's more resilient, if a tree falls on to the tracks breaking the electrified wire, it'd also be on the rails, stopping the train anyway, but I imagine not having an electrified wired dangling around across the country is less dangerous than having a battery in a known location with qualified engineers looking after it. They could just be doing this for PR purposes, but I'd love to see the internal cost analysis that was done to build this vs the cost of building using a known good solution.
      - qarl 2y ago
        The whole point of electric is to improve environmental impact. Wasting energy by moving those batteries is contrary to that goal.
        fragmede 2y ago
        it's not like running a wire for great lengths is ecologically neutral either though, and power transmission lines have losses too. We'd have to see some actual numbers before deciding if moving heavy batteries is better or worse than having an electrified wire.
        qarl 2y ago
        I guess I don't see the big issue with running a wire when you already must run a much larger and more complex track. And yes, we'd need to see numbers to be certain, but my intuition tells me that transmission losses won't come close to hauling all that weight.
      - csb6 2y ago
        > “just" run high powered wires with enough energy to move an entire train for the entire length of the track? This has been done successfully around the world since the 1880s. Looking at a map it seems like the length of the line is only a few miles, so doesn’t seem like it would be that huge of an electrification project, especially considering Germany’s rails are already 55% electrified.
      - timeon 2y ago
        Haven't you be to railroad? It is really "just" how it works for centuries.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      Depending on the location, it’s more environmentally impactful to run copper wires everywhere. Batteries have a lot of advantages if you trust they won’t explode too often.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Lots of trains designed to run by overhead lines have some amount of on-board storage capacity in case power goes out on a segment of the path.
    - orwin 2y ago
      I almost bored you with technical details I will refrain, but basically, you want your train to be able to continue if you have a third rail/overhead failure. Look up TGV-M if you want more information.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  Trains with batteries might make sense in USA, but it is extremely weird to see one in Europe, where electrified rails are ubiquitous and they do not have the disadvantage of batteries that must be charged and which have a limited lifetime.
  - sva_ 2y ago
    I think with the crumbling infrastructure here in Germany, anything that reduces infrastructure maintenance probably makes sense. And ubiquitous? Last time I checked more than half of all trains here ran on Diesel engines. No idea if it improved since, but probably not by much.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  That is not what is normally called an electric train. That is called a diesel train. (Or a diesel-electric train.)
- qarl 2y ago
  Ummm... what charges the batteries? Not diesel?
- stetrain 2y ago
  The "Giga train" is an off-the-shelf battery electric train that Siemens already produces. Tesla just funded their use on this shuttle line for employees of their factory.
- timeon 2y ago
  Is it common for main railroads not to be electrified? In what part of the world do you live?
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Lots of routes around the world rely on diesel-electric trains. Its not like its some rare thing.
- vel0city 2y ago
  I just rode on a train earlier today that was powered mostly by solar, wind, and some natural gas delivered by the grid.
option 2y ago
[flagged]
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Since it is battery based, it can work on lines that don’t have overhead wiring, presumably. From the actual article behind the linked one (https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-all-electric-giga-train-in-germany-takes-first-trip/ https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-all-electric-giga-train-in-...), it looks like this is effectively an employee shuttle: > The Giga Train is Tesla’s answer to potential concerns that some employees might have had regarding how they would get to work. The new train will eventually transport 4,500 employees to the factory every single day, where they will build the company’s all-electric vehicles. It is replacing a train that currently runs on diesel: > Niederbarnimer Eisenbahngesellschaft, or NEB, is the train’s operator, and plans to switch to an e-fleet of trains starting at the end of this year. Managing director Sebastian Achtermann said: > “We will put 31 battery-electric multiple units and seven hydrogen multiple units into operation, gradually replacing the diesel fleet we currently use.” But if this is something they want to actually turn into a product instead of purchasing an existing battery based train, I could see Tesla learning from this experiment and then targeting geographies where there are lots of diesel based train lines without electrification.
lysace 2y ago
The novel aspect is the train being electric without needing a overhead line or a third rail. I guess it could be useful where it's cost-prohibitive to electrify the traditional way, typically in rural areas.
- stetrain 2y ago
  Not really novel here. Tesla funds this employee shuttle route to their factory and it is now using off-the-shelf Siemens Miero B battery-electric trains. It's a nice service to provide, and nice that the electric car factory is served by an electric train, but Tesla isn't launching any new product or technology here.
  - lysace 2y ago
    Thanks, then my comment applies to "Siemens Miero B battery-electric trains".
- rsynnott 2y ago
  That’s also not novel. Here’s one from almost a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train (it predates diesel locomotives as a common thing; it was primarily competing with steam engines). More recently, these have become somewhat commonly used on partially electrified lines. There are at least three types in use in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit... (the ‘Tesla’ one is the third type listed.)
perihelions 2y ago
It amazed me when I learned this (from "Railroad Tycoon II"), that widespread, commercial use of electric trains counterintuitively predated the diesel era. Though the brushed electric motors they had pre-WW2 were very primitive and weak compared to today's. They had no electric batteries worth speaking of, but it was all overhead wires, and labor was cheap; rolling out gigantic infrastructure projects was cheap.
- vel0city 2y ago
  It always blows people's minds in North Texas when I tell them there was electric train service from Dennison to Waco and Corsicana before automobiles were popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Electric_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Electric_Railway What's really crazy is I've told people this while in the park right outside the museum with one of the electric railroad cars and people still didn't have a clue despite being able to see the old railroad stop and living there a generation.
walrus01 2y ago
This appears to be a battery powered version of a diesel multiple unit type regional commuter rail train, notice the lack of overhead wiring for a catenary fed train system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit
stetrain 2y ago
Nothing novel about this specific bit of news. Tesla funds an employee shuttle rail service to a station at their factory. That service is now using battery-electric trains which are off the shelf models from Siemens. Battery-electric passenger trains as an off-the-shelf option are a relatively new phenomenon, but not brand new or unique to this line or use case.

Electric trains have been around and widely adopted for more than 100 years. What is novel about these?

rmason 2y ago

Electric powered trains are run by diesel engines to produce the electricity, the Giga train uses batteries like an EV.

fragmede 2y ago
or by a third rail or overhead wire
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Batteries are cool PR, but wouldn't it be better for a train to not have to accelerate all the mass of the batteries, and just use wires overhead to deliver power?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    "just" run high powered wires with enough energy to move an entire train for the entire length of the track? and deal with having a coupling system to the train? obviously since it's been done it's feasible, but I think you're discounting how much work that is to build and maintain. I'm not sure what's more resilient, if a tree falls on to the tracks breaking the electrified wire, it'd also be on the rails, stopping the train anyway, but I imagine not having an electrified wired dangling around across the country is less dangerous than having a battery in a known location with qualified engineers looking after it. They could just be doing this for PR purposes, but I'd love to see the internal cost analysis that was done to build this vs the cost of building using a known good solution.
    - qarl 2y ago
      The whole point of electric is to improve environmental impact. Wasting energy by moving those batteries is contrary to that goal.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        it's not like running a wire for great lengths is ecologically neutral either though, and power transmission lines have losses too. We'd have to see some actual numbers before deciding if moving heavy batteries is better or worse than having an electrified wire.
        qarl 2y ago
        I guess I don't see the big issue with running a wire when you already must run a much larger and more complex track. And yes, we'd need to see numbers to be certain, but my intuition tells me that transmission losses won't come close to hauling all that weight.
    - csb6 2y ago
      > “just" run high powered wires with enough energy to move an entire train for the entire length of the track? This has been done successfully around the world since the 1880s. Looking at a map it seems like the length of the line is only a few miles, so doesn’t seem like it would be that huge of an electrification project, especially considering Germany’s rails are already 55% electrified.
    - timeon 2y ago
      Haven't you be to railroad? It is really "just" how it works for centuries.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Depending on the location, it’s more environmentally impactful to run copper wires everywhere. Batteries have a lot of advantages if you trust they won’t explode too often.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Lots of trains designed to run by overhead lines have some amount of on-board storage capacity in case power goes out on a segment of the path.
  - orwin 2y ago
    I almost bored you with technical details I will refrain, but basically, you want your train to be able to continue if you have a third rail/overhead failure. Look up TGV-M if you want more information.
adrian_b 2y ago
Trains with batteries might make sense in USA, but it is extremely weird to see one in Europe, where electrified rails are ubiquitous and they do not have the disadvantage of batteries that must be charged and which have a limited lifetime.
- sva_ 2y ago
  I think with the crumbling infrastructure here in Germany, anything that reduces infrastructure maintenance probably makes sense. And ubiquitous? Last time I checked more than half of all trains here ran on Diesel engines. No idea if it improved since, but probably not by much.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
That is not what is normally called an electric train. That is called a diesel train. (Or a diesel-electric train.)
qarl 2y ago
Ummm... what charges the batteries? Not diesel?
stetrain 2y ago
The "Giga train" is an off-the-shelf battery electric train that Siemens already produces. Tesla just funded their use on this shuttle line for employees of their factory.
timeon 2y ago
Is it common for main railroads not to be electrified? In what part of the world do you live?
- vel0city 2y ago
  Lots of routes around the world rely on diesel-electric trains. Its not like its some rare thing.
vel0city 2y ago
I just rode on a train earlier today that was powered mostly by solar, wind, and some natural gas delivered by the grid.

option 2y ago

[flagged]

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

Since it is battery based, it can work on lines that don’t have overhead wiring, presumably. From the actual article behind the linked one (https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-all-electric-giga-train-in-germany-takes-first-trip/ https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-all-electric-giga-train-in-...), it looks like this is effectively an employee shuttle: > The Giga Train is Tesla’s answer to potential concerns that some employees might have had regarding how they would get to work. The new train will eventually transport 4,500 employees to the factory every single day, where they will build the company’s all-electric vehicles. It is replacing a train that currently runs on diesel: > Niederbarnimer Eisenbahngesellschaft, or NEB, is the train’s operator, and plans to switch to an e-fleet of trains starting at the end of this year. Managing director Sebastian Achtermann said: > “We will put 31 battery-electric multiple units and seven hydrogen multiple units into operation, gradually replacing the diesel fleet we currently use.” But if this is something they want to actually turn into a product instead of purchasing an existing battery based train, I could see Tesla learning from this experiment and then targeting geographies where there are lots of diesel based train lines without electrification.

lysace 2y ago

The novel aspect is the train being electric without needing a overhead line or a third rail. I guess it could be useful where it's cost-prohibitive to electrify the traditional way, typically in rural areas.

stetrain 2y ago
Not really novel here. Tesla funds this employee shuttle route to their factory and it is now using off-the-shelf Siemens Miero B battery-electric trains. It's a nice service to provide, and nice that the electric car factory is served by an electric train, but Tesla isn't launching any new product or technology here.
- lysace 2y ago
  Thanks, then my comment applies to "Siemens Miero B battery-electric trains".
rsynnott 2y ago
That’s also not novel. Here’s one from almost a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train (it predates diesel locomotives as a common thing; it was primarily competing with steam engines). More recently, these have become somewhat commonly used on partially electrified lines. There are at least three types in use in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit... (the ‘Tesla’ one is the third type listed.)

perihelions 2y ago

It amazed me when I learned this (from "Railroad Tycoon II"), that widespread, commercial use of electric trains counterintuitively predated the diesel era. Though the brushed electric motors they had pre-WW2 were very primitive and weak compared to today's. They had no electric batteries worth speaking of, but it was all overhead wires, and labor was cheap; rolling out gigantic infrastructure projects was cheap.

vel0city 2y ago
It always blows people's minds in North Texas when I tell them there was electric train service from Dennison to Waco and Corsicana before automobiles were popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Electric_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Electric_Railway What's really crazy is I've told people this while in the park right outside the museum with one of the electric railroad cars and people still didn't have a clue despite being able to see the old railroad stop and living there a generation.

walrus01 2y ago

This appears to be a battery powered version of a diesel multiple unit type regional commuter rail train, notice the lack of overhead wiring for a catenary fed train system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit

stetrain 2y ago

Nothing novel about this specific bit of news. Tesla funds an employee shuttle rail service to a station at their factory. That service is now using battery-electric trains which are off the shelf models from Siemens. Battery-electric passenger trains as an off-the-shelf option are a relatively new phenomenon, but not brand new or unique to this line or use case.