3 ms·

Depends where you are. It might not be a problem in Australia, but it very much is here in Switzerland. Space is at a premium, and NIMBYISM very strong (and inc

Depends where you are. It might not be a problem in Australia, but it very much is here in Switzerland. Space is at a premium, and NIMBYISM very strong (and includes not in my mountains). Most of the costs of building a solar plant is the years of bureaucracy, and the majority of projects (the ones that get built that is) end up massively reduced in scope. So more expensive but more efficient panels are a boon, and won't change much in the total price.

ggm 2y ago
NIMBYISM strong in Oz also alas.
- rgmerk 2y ago
  True, but much more of a problem for wind and transmission than solar per se.
  - ggm 2y ago
    Been some cookers claiming glare problems from solar. And a lot of "oh no the loss of farmland" when evidence is good for co grazing and some cropping.
    - ex7820le_j 2y ago
      https://phytonics.com/en/home/ https://phytonics.com/en/home/ Good resource to solve any solar panel glare problem. Useful for solar on the free spaces around airports as well.
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  I imagine it’s strong anywhere people have back yards.
TobTobXX 2y ago
Not-in-my-backyard-ism?
sandworm101 2y ago
Solar panels generally get less efficient with age. So many existing solar farms will be looking to upgrade/replace panels one day, something that generally doesnt require much paperwork.
- DoctorOetker 2y ago
  Do you know if there is a reason PV farms avoid concentrated photovoltaics? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrator_photovoltaics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrator_photovoltaics This should allow swapping out a small PV module and more cheaply upgrade a farm as PV module efficiencies improve in many small steps. One could argue that one would have to upgrade the inverters at every step, but that would be wasteful: just size the inverters to accomodate many future increments (if inverter lifetime is bottleneck one has to estimate future efficiencies of PV modules, if inverter lifetime is not the bottleneck just use the thermodynamic maximum efficiency to size the inverter once, and only upgrade the PV module over time).
  - pjc50 2y ago
    The panels are so cheap that it's not worth fiddling with optics. The economics works better with as little glass as possible, just enough to protect the cells. This also killed tracking solar, which being a mechanical device has maintenance overheads. There's not as much mileage in panel upgrades as you might expect. It's not Moore's law, it's much slower, and surprisingly the rated life of inverters tends to be shorter than that of panels. Once panels are installed they're going to be left alone as much as possible (because that costs money) for twenty or more years.
    - DoctorOetker 2y ago
      The panels are so cheap that the optics shouldn't be compared to other costs like the price of panels but to the price of inverters and installation, maintenance,... Look at the price for upgrading the solar farm over time, N times the price of solar panels may still dwarf the cost of the optics.
    - 2y ago
jajko 2y ago
Swiss could power entire nation (plus export some more) if they cared enough to harness all that kinetic energy of water coming down 3000m from the mountains. That's the last country with renewables problem. Plus I see tons of solars here on rooftops, on new buildings etc. Colleagues with houses got some tax breaks so they poured some serious money into these and drive teslas basically for free (doesn't change TCO that much given how brutal repair costs or more frequent changes of those big tires & brakes are, but still, they have a warm fuzzy feeling about it).
- TeckPerspecc 2y ago
  Brake pads typically last the lifetime of a vehicle for an EV. 90%+ of braking is regenerative.
- jve 2y ago
  > given how brutal repair costs or more frequent changes of those big tires & brakes are, but still, they have a warm fuzzy feeling about it Regarding brakes: that is pretty far from the truth as other sibling commented they use regenerative braking. Tires - yeah. Well, except minivan or some pickups weights the same as Tesla so it is not like out of ordinary.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Sorry my bad, it actually makes sense re brake pads. And those bigger cars - thats not majority on Swiss(=european) roads, we have tons of narrow roads, parking spots are short and narrow too. Roads with traffic generally look very different compared to US.
- Leherenn 2y ago
  Do you have a source for your first claim? My understanding is that hydro is mostly saturated in Switzerland (https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/baug/department/news/dokumente/Hydropower_Synthesis_Report_sm.pdf https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/baug/depar...) There's also very little appetite (and it's been the case since the 80's) for hydro anyway. Even before the biodiversity argument, simply moving whole communities is just no longer a thing.

ggm 2y ago

NIMBYISM strong in Oz also alas.

rgmerk 2y ago
True, but much more of a problem for wind and transmission than solar per se.
- ggm 2y ago
  Been some cookers claiming glare problems from solar. And a lot of "oh no the loss of farmland" when evidence is good for co grazing and some cropping.
  - ex7820le_j 2y ago
    https://phytonics.com/en/home/ https://phytonics.com/en/home/ Good resource to solve any solar panel glare problem. Useful for solar on the free spaces around airports as well.
mattmaroon 2y ago
I imagine it’s strong anywhere people have back yards.

TobTobXX 2y ago

Not-in-my-backyard-ism?

sandworm101 2y ago

Solar panels generally get less efficient with age. So many existing solar farms will be looking to upgrade/replace panels one day, something that generally doesnt require much paperwork.

DoctorOetker 2y ago
Do you know if there is a reason PV farms avoid concentrated photovoltaics? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrator_photovoltaics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrator_photovoltaics This should allow swapping out a small PV module and more cheaply upgrade a farm as PV module efficiencies improve in many small steps. One could argue that one would have to upgrade the inverters at every step, but that would be wasteful: just size the inverters to accomodate many future increments (if inverter lifetime is bottleneck one has to estimate future efficiencies of PV modules, if inverter lifetime is not the bottleneck just use the thermodynamic maximum efficiency to size the inverter once, and only upgrade the PV module over time).
- pjc50 2y ago
  The panels are so cheap that it's not worth fiddling with optics. The economics works better with as little glass as possible, just enough to protect the cells. This also killed tracking solar, which being a mechanical device has maintenance overheads. There's not as much mileage in panel upgrades as you might expect. It's not Moore's law, it's much slower, and surprisingly the rated life of inverters tends to be shorter than that of panels. Once panels are installed they're going to be left alone as much as possible (because that costs money) for twenty or more years.
  - DoctorOetker 2y ago
    The panels are so cheap that the optics shouldn't be compared to other costs like the price of panels but to the price of inverters and installation, maintenance,... Look at the price for upgrading the solar farm over time, N times the price of solar panels may still dwarf the cost of the optics.
  - 2y ago

jajko 2y ago

Swiss could power entire nation (plus export some more) if they cared enough to harness all that kinetic energy of water coming down 3000m from the mountains. That's the last country with renewables problem. Plus I see tons of solars here on rooftops, on new buildings etc. Colleagues with houses got some tax breaks so they poured some serious money into these and drive teslas basically for free (doesn't change TCO that much given how brutal repair costs or more frequent changes of those big tires & brakes are, but still, they have a warm fuzzy feeling about it).

TeckPerspecc 2y ago
Brake pads typically last the lifetime of a vehicle for an EV. 90%+ of braking is regenerative.
jve 2y ago
> given how brutal repair costs or more frequent changes of those big tires & brakes are, but still, they have a warm fuzzy feeling about it Regarding brakes: that is pretty far from the truth as other sibling commented they use regenerative braking. Tires - yeah. Well, except minivan or some pickups weights the same as Tesla so it is not like out of ordinary.
- jajko 2y ago
  Sorry my bad, it actually makes sense re brake pads. And those bigger cars - thats not majority on Swiss(=european) roads, we have tons of narrow roads, parking spots are short and narrow too. Roads with traffic generally look very different compared to US.
Leherenn 2y ago
Do you have a source for your first claim? My understanding is that hydro is mostly saturated in Switzerland (https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/baug/department/news/dokumente/Hydropower_Synthesis_Report_sm.pdf https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/baug/depar...) There's also very little appetite (and it's been the case since the 80's) for hydro anyway. Even before the biodiversity argument, simply moving whole communities is just no longer a thing.