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When I read things like this it feels like reading fiction. Not because I don't believe it (I do), but because it is so far from my lived experience or anything

When I read things like this it feels like reading fiction. Not because I don't believe it (I do), but because it is so far from my lived experience or anything I have perceived. It makes me wonder if I just so happen to run in circles that are ostensibly devoid of misogyny or if I am blind to it.

jl6 2y ago
Misogyny spoken out loud is very rare, but actions speak louder than words, and as the first bulleted point in the article mentions, male advantage begins at a very early age. It’s possible for there to be near-zero misogyny in the workplace, and yet for women to be systematically disadvantaged by the opportunities foregone in their upbringing.
saagarjha 2y ago
Are you a woman?
lrasinen 2y ago
I'm in a similar situation and I'd guess in my case it's 1/4 blindness and 3/4 working with decent people. For most of my career I've worked in mixed teams and can't recall seeing overt misogyny at all within the team. However, there's been a client or two who want to "talk it man-to-man", or simply not believing anything our female technical subject expert was saying before someone with a male name confirmed it, qualifications be damned. I'm sure for every such case there's been 10 I've just not heard about. Meanwhile my wife, also in IT, hasn't really experienced any harassment or misogyny at all in the past 20 years or so.
fragmede 2y ago
A one place I worked, one of the interviews we gave had a hidden test that wasn't part of the official interview. The candidate is introduced to the person officially giving the interview, who happens to be a woman, and there was a man, whom the candidate is told is new and just shadowing the interviewer so ignore them. If the candidate only talked with the man, they didn't get an offer.
- setr 2y ago
  Unless this accounted for side conversation outside the interview, this sounds utterly psychotic — and even then. There’s an unbelievable number of false positives I’d expect from such an inane setup
  - BirdieNZ 2y ago
    Shadow interviewers are common; why would it be inane to expect an interviewee to ignore the shadow?
    - setr 2y ago
      read it backwards; thought the shadow as the woman, and not-ignoring the shadow was the crime
- tomp 2y ago
  How frequent was that?
rented_mule 2y ago
Even if you're open to seeing it, it often doesn't happen in a setting where you would be able to observe it. A close friend of mine went to a top math/science/engineering college. A professor called her into his office to tell her that she was doing well above average, and that she should find a non-technical line of education and work. His rationale was that she had to be 10x as good as men to make it in a technical field. But she's not 10x as good, so give up now. She went on to work on highly technical software on the campus of another elite technical college. While walking around that campus in a sweatshirt from her alma mater, a man stopped her and asked her where she got the sweatshirt. She said she graduated from that college. He laughed and said, "No, really, where did you get it?" Another friend of mine was an intern at a FAANG and her manager said he'd make her a full-time offer if she slept with him. She didn't. On her first day at the company she ended up joining after college, she was asked out by a man more than twice her age. Given her internship experience and not knowing how powerful this man was at the new company, this was complicated to navigate. It turns out that man was asking out every woman of East Asian descent that was single and that came into contact with him, many during their first interaction with him. That included teenage interns. He managed to get one of those interns to drink a bit too much and walk over to his apartment alone with him. Luckily, she figured out what was going on before he could get what he wanted, but the experience still resulted in significant trauma for her. These kinds of things are still horrifically common. But all of these examples happened in relative privacy, so it's easy to not notice it if you're not on the receiving end of it and don't have friends that want to talk about it. Understandably, many don't want to talk about it, especially with coworkers.
- imtringued 2y ago
  >His rationale was that she had to be 10x as good as men to make it in a technical field. But she's not 10x as good, so give up now. Uhmmm, there is strong evidence that women have an easier time in tech to receive responses to their job applications, to get invited to interviews and actually get the job. There is no competence "DPS check" and tech competence doesn't shield you from being manipulated. Then there is the well kept secret that you get most of your tech competence from working 40 hours a week, every week. Not from side projects at home, not from 4 to 5 years of university. Getting your foot in the door is far more important than your academic background.

jl6 2y ago

Misogyny spoken out loud is very rare, but actions speak louder than words, and as the first bulleted point in the article mentions, male advantage begins at a very early age. It’s possible for there to be near-zero misogyny in the workplace, and yet for women to be systematically disadvantaged by the opportunities foregone in their upbringing.

saagarjha 2y ago

Are you a woman?

lrasinen 2y ago

I'm in a similar situation and I'd guess in my case it's 1/4 blindness and 3/4 working with decent people. For most of my career I've worked in mixed teams and can't recall seeing overt misogyny at all within the team. However, there's been a client or two who want to "talk it man-to-man", or simply not believing anything our female technical subject expert was saying before someone with a male name confirmed it, qualifications be damned. I'm sure for every such case there's been 10 I've just not heard about. Meanwhile my wife, also in IT, hasn't really experienced any harassment or misogyny at all in the past 20 years or so.

fragmede 2y ago

A one place I worked, one of the interviews we gave had a hidden test that wasn't part of the official interview. The candidate is introduced to the person officially giving the interview, who happens to be a woman, and there was a man, whom the candidate is told is new and just shadowing the interviewer so ignore them. If the candidate only talked with the man, they didn't get an offer.

setr 2y ago
Unless this accounted for side conversation outside the interview, this sounds utterly psychotic — and even then. There’s an unbelievable number of false positives I’d expect from such an inane setup
- BirdieNZ 2y ago
  Shadow interviewers are common; why would it be inane to expect an interviewee to ignore the shadow?
  - setr 2y ago
    read it backwards; thought the shadow as the woman, and not-ignoring the shadow was the crime
tomp 2y ago
How frequent was that?

rented_mule 2y ago

Even if you're open to seeing it, it often doesn't happen in a setting where you would be able to observe it. A close friend of mine went to a top math/science/engineering college. A professor called her into his office to tell her that she was doing well above average, and that she should find a non-technical line of education and work. His rationale was that she had to be 10x as good as men to make it in a technical field. But she's not 10x as good, so give up now. She went on to work on highly technical software on the campus of another elite technical college. While walking around that campus in a sweatshirt from her alma mater, a man stopped her and asked her where she got the sweatshirt. She said she graduated from that college. He laughed and said, "No, really, where did you get it?" Another friend of mine was an intern at a FAANG and her manager said he'd make her a full-time offer if she slept with him. She didn't. On her first day at the company she ended up joining after college, she was asked out by a man more than twice her age. Given her internship experience and not knowing how powerful this man was at the new company, this was complicated to navigate. It turns out that man was asking out every woman of East Asian descent that was single and that came into contact with him, many during their first interaction with him. That included teenage interns. He managed to get one of those interns to drink a bit too much and walk over to his apartment alone with him. Luckily, she figured out what was going on before he could get what he wanted, but the experience still resulted in significant trauma for her. These kinds of things are still horrifically common. But all of these examples happened in relative privacy, so it's easy to not notice it if you're not on the receiving end of it and don't have friends that want to talk about it. Understandably, many don't want to talk about it, especially with coworkers.

imtringued 2y ago
>His rationale was that she had to be 10x as good as men to make it in a technical field. But she's not 10x as good, so give up now. Uhmmm, there is strong evidence that women have an easier time in tech to receive responses to their job applications, to get invited to interviews and actually get the job. There is no competence "DPS check" and tech competence doesn't shield you from being manipulated. Then there is the well kept secret that you get most of your tech competence from working 40 hours a week, every week. Not from side projects at home, not from 4 to 5 years of university. Getting your foot in the door is far more important than your academic background.