22 ms·

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arreste

by asto 14y ago

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1]http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-blasphemy-petition_1_asia-bibi-blasphemy-salman-taseer?_s=PM:ASIA http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari [3]http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-programmer-2012-01-19 http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-...

irfan 14y ago
That exactly is the image problem Eric is talking about
- nakkiel 14y ago
  I think it's also called racism.
iuguy 14y ago
> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself. Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans? I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.
- asto 14y ago
  In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journalists-arrest-is-a-real-danger http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenager-death-women-rights http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incident because of the video leakk. Who knows what else goes on there. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099 Oman will throw you in jail for dissent with the govt http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent-nets-poet-and-blogger-1.1034411 http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent... A lot of these emirates are guilty of encouraging human trafficking to allow supply of cheap labour. When your rich american/european visits the UAE, he doesn't see the human rights violations going on right around him - partly because his environment is sanitized of ill treatment of labour from poorer countries and partly because he chooses not to see. Should we all just shut up about the UAE's behaviour then? The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. I didn't mean to go muslim bashing with my comment but as you can see, they're easy to classify in this fashion. I wouldn't go to China either for the same reason I wouldn't go to a muslim country.
  - iuguy 14y ago
    I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the world and aren't just limited to states with a majority muslim population. > The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. It's clear you've never been to Turkey. Turkey's outpaced the EU for economic growth for years and effectively dodged an economic bullet by not joining the EU. It may benefit by not being in the Euro, but loses out on tariffs and taxes. If you walk around Levent in Istanbul you'll see the real money's coming from China, Russia and the Middle East, not Europe.
pknerd 14y ago
I find it more media brainwashed than anything, come to Karachi and by my guest. You will definitely regret on your last opinion
nakkiel 14y ago
Last time I wen't to Pakistan I was pretty happy with it and I'm not even a rich dude. Carefully check how the Muslim world works because it's quite similar to how the Western works: it's a bunch of different countries that share common interests and disagree on a lot of other things. Trying to make a story with three links pointing at different countries.. Try the same with Hungary, Spain and the USA. You will hardly say anything interesting. As far as Pakistan is concerned, make sure that you don't consider the Tribal Areas the same way you would consider the country itself. They are independent in many regards. Knowing is understanding. I suggest you say no to your condition and discover other cultures and people. You will certainly become a much more interesting person in the process.
- berntb 14y ago
  I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx "The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-control and a threat to Pakistani democracy. Pakistanis who express these beliefs openly in Pakistan can get arrested or killed." At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on. It is a pity for the country, the economy should go like India or China if the place was better managed. I hope the article is correct in its optimism. (I read that site for fun and to get the opposite perspective from my local Swedish media, which aren't that dependable.)
  - nakkiel 14y ago
    When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area. Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan? Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power structure due to waves of migrants and militants. Such areas have also been steeply radicalising (remember the Swat war?). So, if Pakistanis officials are trying to keep a sense of unity, and perhaps reinforce Pakistani feeling, by collaborating with what the West sees as terror networks, so be it. They must ensure that these areas don't radicalise more and that it doesn't spread. Now, the US is totally biased in the situation. It's literally been trying to dictate decisions to the Pakistani officials (military or political) for years. > At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on. I'm unsure whether this is a joke or not. It has to be a joke, right? Regarding the freedom of speech, I'll ask you if you think it matters. Because if you think it matters there are a couple of things you might consider: You could stop buying Japanese cars and hard-drives as Thai people end up in jail for expressing opinions that go against the monarchy (google lèse-majesté law in Thailand). You could stop buying French cars and wine as migrants are put in "jails" and drugged against their will to keep them quiet and sometimes denied lawyers and assistance. You could stop buying IT equipment because of the situation in China. etc... What I do know about Pakistan is that the government was deeply criticized for their handling of the floods in 2009. I also do know for reading from there that freedom of speech in the press is not a vain thing (being French, living in Thailand, I've actually found their critics very open). I'm not very hopeful regarding the freedom of speech in general. In France nobody talks about those migrant centres that I called "jails" above. Nobody cares. In Thailand people think it's fine to have such a law (of course, except those who have something to say). I think there's a threshold under which a problem isn't a problem for enough people to reach a critical mass that could lead to a change.

by asto 14y ago

irfan 14y ago

That exactly is the image problem Eric is talking about

nakkiel 14y ago
I think it's also called racism.

iuguy 14y ago

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself. Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans? I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.

asto 14y ago
In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journalists-arrest-is-a-real-danger http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenager-death-women-rights http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incident because of the video leakk. Who knows what else goes on there. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099 Oman will throw you in jail for dissent with the govt http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent-nets-poet-and-blogger-1.1034411 http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent... A lot of these emirates are guilty of encouraging human trafficking to allow supply of cheap labour. When your rich american/european visits the UAE, he doesn't see the human rights violations going on right around him - partly because his environment is sanitized of ill treatment of labour from poorer countries and partly because he chooses not to see. Should we all just shut up about the UAE's behaviour then? The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. I didn't mean to go muslim bashing with my comment but as you can see, they're easy to classify in this fashion. I wouldn't go to China either for the same reason I wouldn't go to a muslim country.
- iuguy 14y ago
  I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the world and aren't just limited to states with a majority muslim population. > The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. It's clear you've never been to Turkey. Turkey's outpaced the EU for economic growth for years and effectively dodged an economic bullet by not joining the EU. It may benefit by not being in the Euro, but loses out on tariffs and taxes. If you walk around Levent in Istanbul you'll see the real money's coming from China, Russia and the Middle East, not Europe.

pknerd 14y ago

I find it more media brainwashed than anything, come to Karachi and by my guest. You will definitely regret on your last opinion

nakkiel 14y ago

Last time I wen't to Pakistan I was pretty happy with it and I'm not even a rich dude. Carefully check how the Muslim world works because it's quite similar to how the Western works: it's a bunch of different countries that share common interests and disagree on a lot of other things. Trying to make a story with three links pointing at different countries.. Try the same with Hungary, Spain and the USA. You will hardly say anything interesting. As far as Pakistan is concerned, make sure that you don't consider the Tribal Areas the same way you would consider the country itself. They are independent in many regards. Knowing is understanding. I suggest you say no to your condition and discover other cultures and people. You will certainly become a much more interesting person in the process.

berntb 14y ago
I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx "The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-control and a threat to Pakistani democracy. Pakistanis who express these beliefs openly in Pakistan can get arrested or killed." At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on. It is a pity for the country, the economy should go like India or China if the place was better managed. I hope the article is correct in its optimism. (I read that site for fun and to get the opposite perspective from my local Swedish media, which aren't that dependable.)
- nakkiel 14y ago
  When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area. Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan? Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power structure due to waves of migrants and militants. Such areas have also been steeply radicalising (remember the Swat war?). So, if Pakistanis officials are trying to keep a sense of unity, and perhaps reinforce Pakistani feeling, by collaborating with what the West sees as terror networks, so be it. They must ensure that these areas don't radicalise more and that it doesn't spread. Now, the US is totally biased in the situation. It's literally been trying to dictate decisions to the Pakistani officials (military or political) for years. > At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on. I'm unsure whether this is a joke or not. It has to be a joke, right? Regarding the freedom of speech, I'll ask you if you think it matters. Because if you think it matters there are a couple of things you might consider: You could stop buying Japanese cars and hard-drives as Thai people end up in jail for expressing opinions that go against the monarchy (google lèse-majesté law in Thailand). You could stop buying French cars and wine as migrants are put in "jails" and drugged against their will to keep them quiet and sometimes denied lawyers and assistance. You could stop buying IT equipment because of the situation in China. etc... What I do know about Pakistan is that the government was deeply criticized for their handling of the floods in 2009. I also do know for reading from there that freedom of speech in the press is not a vain thing (being French, living in Thailand, I've actually found their critics very open). I'm not very hopeful regarding the freedom of speech in general. In France nobody talks about those migrant centres that I called "jails" above. Nobody cares. In Thailand people think it's fine to have such a law (of course, except those who have something to say). I think there's a threshold under which a problem isn't a problem for enough people to reach a critical mass that could lead to a change.