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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

88 points by irfan 14y ago

nodata 14y ago
Is this really Eric Schmidt? How do we verify a Plus account?
- carbon8 14y ago
  The "check" icon next to the name on the profile page: http://i.imgur.com/Jzg8Y.png http://i.imgur.com/Jzg8Y.png
kamakazizuru 14y ago
great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future, he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.
- thinker 14y ago
  That's true for the military complex he mentions and the government. The middle class is less about 'anti-India' and more about keeping up with the Joneses. There is often a feeling of "we could be where India are right now" if we simply weren't embroiled in internal corruption scandals and government overthrows. Of course, when it comes to a cricket match between the two, you're spot on.
- alan_cx 14y ago
  Historically, isn't the USA kinda based on being anti-British? Wasn't there some war thingy where you chaps booted us out? We get on now, don't we?
  - kamakazizuru 14y ago
    precisely my point - Pakistan needs to get to that point as well, but the Indo-Pak history is significantly more complicated than the British American history. Saying - we should all get along, is simple, try telling that to the israelis and palestinians. I'd like to invite you to read up a bit about the history of India and Pakistan and their problems and the massive difference between them and the US/UK. It's easy to throw a reddit style comment on there without much understanding of the situation itself I imagine. Here's something to get you started: http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/pakistan-s-problems-are-in-pakistan-s-dna http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/pakistan-s-pro...
  - conover 14y ago
    The colonies were an ocean away during the age of sail. I imagine things would have turned out quite differently if Britain was on our southern border.
    - kibwen 14y ago
      You don't even need to imagine! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 Though I'm not sure whether this supports or refutes your point... because we did start to get along pretty swimmingly once it was all over.
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    No. It is based on getting out from under British colonial control, not being anti-British. India and Pakistan aren't analogous in that India does not play the role of the British Empire. They were both parts of the same British colonial possession and the circumstances of the split and the constitutional nature of Pakistan are what is at issue here.
- redwood 14y ago
  Similar to Bangladesh, the anti-Pakistan (e.g. the anti-anti-India). All Pakistan's problems (except the bloodshed) are worse here :(
  - esalman 14y ago
    I won't compare but Bangladesh is not in a very bad shape. Compared to 20 or even 10 years back, we've made great progress. Sure everyone will talk about corruption, cost of living and power problem but the economic and industrial activities are showing sound resistance and never slowing down.
- arethuza 14y ago
  "The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india" Isn't that a relatively common situation for countries - especially those with a historical connection to a much larger neighbour? For example in the UK there is the well known "Anyone but the English" thing where people in Wales/Scotland/Ireland support teams in major sporting events based on this selection criteria. And the "unofficial" Scottish national anthem is about a war 700 years ago against the English.
  - kamakazizuru 14y ago
    I'm not sure I know enough about Scotland / Wales / England / Ireland to fairly comment here. The key difference as I understand it at least, is that India and Pakistan did not exist as nations - ever - they were both nations created "artificially" out of the greater Indian sub-continent. India walked away with the history of the ancient indian civilization and everything from then on as its own story - Pakistan emerged as "we're not India, we're a muslim nation". I see where you're coming from - but the problems here run significantly deeper than sports rivalries!
    - arethuza 14y ago
      Scotland is currently preparing for a referendum on splitting from the UK (which really means, as far as Scots are concerned, splitting from England). In what I'm sure is a complete coincidence, the referendum is going to be in the same year as the 700th anniversary of the climactic battle of the Scottish War of Independence at Bannockburn. The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep - at least from the Scottish side, not sure that the average Englishmen cares and if they do it's probably to wish us good riddance.... :-)
      - hollerith 14y ago
        >The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep OK, but the divisions are unlikely to lead to open warfare like they have 3 times between Pak and India.
- jbm 14y ago
  You know, I am reading a lot of comments like this lately on HN. It is always about the same group of countries too. Whether it is the "I hate to be a hater.." comment I read last week in the article about some random Arab nation introducing better schools, or this article about Pakistan. You will notice it also in articles about Israel or other "politically charged" areas too. In short, glossing over the entire article, and then dropping in some negative meme about the area in question. Please stop it. Anti-Other-ism is not a Pakistani-only phenomena, as anyone here can attest to. An example I had was a physics professor in CEGEP who was horrified that I didn't drink. He proceeded to tell me that he "knew all about that Pakistan-India" business - through his Hindu Indian wife. Truth mixed with bigotry was the kindest way to put his newfound opinions. (Even then, it would not be fair to say that /her/ identity was based on being Anti-Pakistan or even a bigot) Really, the concept of reducing a nation's entire identity to a strong negative emotion is ridiculous. It would be about as fair as saying that the American identity is about being "Anti-Brown" or the Japanese identity is about being "alien from the rest of the world". Nonsense, except for the smallest fraction of crazies that you could find in any sufficiently large population. I'll take the critical-but-fair opinion of a third party such as Eric Schmidt over a compromised local like MJ Akbar any day.
  - asto 14y ago
    Pakis have been brainwashed since birth by "education" to hate Indians and Hindus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_textbooks_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_textbooks_controversy Interestingly, here in India too we have had controversies with textbooks. Our current ruling coalition has been accused of pandering to Muslims to tap the votebank!
    - amalag 14y ago
      The past few decades show that when Pakistan has some problem (no food production, etc), they will solve it by attacking India. Lets see what the future holds, history tends to repeat itself. India has bee under external attack for thousands of years.
    - hythloday 14y ago
- obtu 14y ago
  This alludes to it: > The press are generally hyper-critical of the United States policies in the region and take the view that the India-US relationship is driving much of our countries behavior. It's put in diplomatic terms, but anyone from a western country will recognise it as saying that the public discourse about India (and the US) is far from rational. Your other comments are a lot more precise, so thanks.
jorahmormont 14y ago
The following article by a Pakistani-Indian is a good read and explains the fundamental problem that Pakistan faces. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230491110457644...
raheemm 14y ago
I spent a few days in Pakistan last week, specifically in Karachi. I found the people to be very polite, the city vibrant and modern (much more so than I expected), and in spite of their enormous challenges, there are pockets of growth and development (telecom, islamic banking). Like much of South Asia, these developments are in spite of the government. There also seemed to be an air of optimism about the prospects of Imran Khan becoming the next Prime Minister. I asked my taxi driver what might cause Imran Khan to lose and he mentioned if America does not want him, he wont become PM. Here is an interview of Imran Khan with Julian Assange - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacS98ATtIM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacS98ATtIM
asto 14y ago
Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1]http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-blasphemy-petition_1_asia-bibi-blasphemy-salman-taseer?_s=PM:ASIA http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari [3]http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-programmer-2012-01-19 http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-...
- irfan 14y ago
  That exactly is the image problem Eric is talking about
  - nakkiel 14y ago
    I think it's also called racism.
- iuguy 14y ago
  > I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself. Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans? I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.
zack12 14y ago
I live in Lahore which is one of the three major cities in Pakistan. Trust me, what he says about electricity is absolutely true. Right now I am sitting which out any electricity. My internet modem is on UPS so that I can have uninterrupted internet. As far as computer is concerned, I have to religiously charge my laptop whenever there is electricity so that I can use the laptop during the load shedding times.. Since its so hot( I am sweating right now no fan, and the temperature is 50 C), my laptop heats up which usually causes my graphics card to burn out. Just bought my third laptop in last 12 months. Desktop computers are out of question.
- hollerith 14y ago
  50 deg C == 122 deg F.
capex 14y ago
In terms of startups, Pakistan is being let down by the banking bureaucracy. Paypal doesn't work in Pakistan, and there is no official explanation of why it is so. Lacking a mode of easy/ secure online payments, startups are kind of dead in Pakistan at this time.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  If you have a risky or nonexistent payment infrastructure, poor ability to enforce contracts, high inflation, high interest rates, and high risk due to corruption then it is going to be tough. Unfortunately these kinds of conditions cover most of the populated world.
omarqureshi 14y ago
British Pakistani here. Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people. Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is. This poor education leads Zardari (a corrupt politician who has ties to the murder of Murtaza Bhutto) only coming to power due to a three way effect of a sympathy vote (assassination of Benazir Bhutto), bribery and threats to people who work on his land (he is one of the largest land owners in Sindh). Nowhere else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation. The secondary problem is ALL the corruption from the upper levels of politics, to the police itself. If you're caught speeding in Pakistan, simply apologise to the officer who has caught you and slip him a few hundred rupees. Want to get out of the airport faster by not having your bags security checked? Slip 500 rupees to the security officer. Are you the prime minister of the country being investigated for money laundering? Make the lives hell for judges and lawyers. Fix the education problem and everything else will fall into place and this is something that I truly hope that PTI will do, should they on the unlikely chance get into power (I say unlikely as I envisage that the PPP will somehow manage to bullshit their way through another election).
- nakkiel 14y ago
  Corruption is everywhere. Pakistan is hardly different. Even in the UK you'll find corrupt politicians or entrepreneurs. Perhaps they are less so (or simply better at it?) but this simply won't stop any time soon. Education is an issue but only in the long term. Assuming Pakistan managed to overcome several of its other problems, uneducated would become Pakistan's most important resource. Uneducated people are what make industrialisation possible. They make low wages possible and so the country becomes interesting as a manufacturing base (as Thailand has become for example). With more economic activity will come education and then the country will have to find an alternative economic source. More education will also affect corruption as educated people tend to be less willing to put up with it. This is of course overly simple but for a big picture, it does hold some truth. I believe that focusing prematurely on education, is actually counter-productive as the tissue of companies in need of educated workers simply is not there and makes low wages more difficult. The West is also a good example of other issues with educated people. Countries full of educated people are more difficult to manage. For example France is badly in need of deep reforms but they will simply never happen because French would go on strike as a result of such reforms. For what it's worth, in France you'd get a 90 Euros fine for speeding on a standard road. I'm not arguing whether it's good or bad, the answer simply isn't black or white. I do know though that 90 Euros is not sustainable for many a family in France while a 250 Bath (in Thailand) is fairly cheap for car-owners.
pknerd 14y ago
A Pakistani from Karachi here. What actually amaze me most of the time that people consider Pakistan similar to Afghanistan and they believe that Pakistan == FATA region. The reality is that Fata is not even 5% of Pakistan and the region is disturbed because of invasion in Afghanistan and closed cultural ties between FATA and Afghans. Totally agree about Mobile penetration in Pakistan. It is something similar to Africa. The difference that in Pakistan there is no wider acceptance of mobile usage other than sending useless SMS and Spams. There are only 2 companies offer mobile payments and that are also not TRUE mobile payments. The technology is quite enjoyed by Pakistanis both in rural and urban areas. The biggest obstacle is corruption and politicians itself who don't let people to get educated.
- planetguy 14y ago
  Fifteen years ago I thought of Pakistan as "that other India". Now I think of it as "that other Afghanistan". This doesn't seem like progress.
pknerd 14y ago
Interview of Imran Khan, the budding politicians and ex successful cricket Captain, you will learn more and have more authentic view about Pakistan. Julian Assange interviews Imran Assange http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-AJIqN_r4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-AJIqN_r4
draggnar 14y ago
Vice magazine recently went to karachi and made a fascinating documentary. The situation on the ground is pretty bad. http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-to-karachi-part-1 http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-...
ern 14y ago
the rest of Pakistan for the average citizen, much larger than the first and which is reasonably misunderstood and relatively safe; I'm not an expert on the topic, but if Karachi[1] can be regarded as "relatively safe", the Pakistan has bigger problems that I imagined. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-faultlines-exposed-killings http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-f...
DanielBMarkham 14y ago
The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to its true potential. Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution folks. I don't mean to be cynical, but the desires of the emerging middle class are going to have to compete -- perhaps with great violence -- with the desires of the established interests. That's what happens when political systems aren't able to auto-correct and run for many decades. The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country? That is, does it control its borders, is the government the sole user of force against the population, is there a place where international partners can go and ask for and receive redress when wronged by citizens of Pakistan? I don't think it is. Or if it is, it's a close call. Having said all of that negative stuff, I wish the people living in Pakistan the best. An emerging middle class, along with a decent education and unfettered internet access, is their best shot at a happier tomorrow.
- urbanjunkie 14y ago
  > The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country? Given that there is no real agreed definition as to what exactly a country is, it's unlikely that Schmidt could answer that. Also your definitions about what a country is are strangely arbitrary and seem to have little to do with whether a country is a country or not. But, but almost any definition of country, Pakistan is a country. It may have many problems, but it's absurd to suggest that it might not be.
- srean 14y ago
  I think you raise valid points. One difficult problem is (and I have faced this myself for the longest time and it is evident the Eric Schmidt is suffering from it as well) is that one tends to appraise a country along a line that mirrors one's own priors of what a country typically is. Such priors usually mirrors ones own country. Pakistan's position is really very unique and it takes time to understand it. The usual labels take very different meanings. For instance what the western world calls "middle class" almost doesn't exist in the form that they expect it to. Even if it did, it has nowhere the clout or the purchase. The country is deeply, and I do mean deeply, feudal. "Middle class" either means of a feudal family decent or of military lineage. Feudal land holdings and military are the two, and pretty much the only two centers that drives the economy and are locked in their desire to keep their privileges intact. If you are interested in this topic, do take time to find out what percentage these two forces account for. And then you have the significantly large radicalized population. And even here it is very different. You would think radical groups are fringe groups, but not quite so in Pakistan and this has been cultivated by deliberate intent over several decades. The identity of a victimized population that the world has been unfair to because of their religion gets ingrained very early in the education system. Such a belief of persecution is rampant even in the mainstream, sometimes given a modicum of a veneer. Its difficult to catch these undertones unless one is familiar with the language and reads the same newspapers that the Pakistanis read, or watch the same TV shows that Pakistanis watch. Find out about Zaid Hamid and then consider the fact that there he is as main stream as vanila ice-cream. Next word: army. It is very different from an army one would expect to see. It is a cross between a rich political party that has an unprecedentedly militarized cadre and a mafia house doling out favors (in the form of jobs and other privileges) to keep the population in control. On one hand it controls what you would call the civic life and on the other it also controls albeit at a very decentralized way the different Jihadi outfits which are again smaller mafia houses as entrenched in an economic endeavor as much as a religious one. Its common to dismiss these radical outfits as religious whackos, but you would get a better understanding if you also follow the money and see how the business side of it works. Entwined with the feudal system is a deep ethnic undercurrent and you would often find the different parties locked in a perverse game theoretic equilibrium trying to gain control. All this goes unreported in the western media, or well in their own country as well. To see what I am talking about, dig up statistics of violence related civilian (police personnel included) deaths in Karachi in the past year, and Karachi is the most liberal city there. The funniest comment by Eric Schmidt was about freedom of the press. That does not exist. Unless you have some seat of power guarding your life you cant say what you want to say at least not while residing in Pakistan. If you have interest you can follow this sarcastic blog of a faux major http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-for-peace/ http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-fo... but you have to read between the lines because beneath the sarcasm there lies a lot of deliberate thought.
siculars 14y ago
The only thing that will save Pakistan is a complete disassociation with radical Islam. That, more education and less corruption. Godspeed.

88 points by irfan 14y ago

nodata 14y ago

Is this really Eric Schmidt? How do we verify a Plus account?

carbon8 14y ago
The "check" icon next to the name on the profile page: http://i.imgur.com/Jzg8Y.png http://i.imgur.com/Jzg8Y.png

kamakazizuru 14y ago

great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future, he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.

thinker 14y ago
That's true for the military complex he mentions and the government. The middle class is less about 'anti-India' and more about keeping up with the Joneses. There is often a feeling of "we could be where India are right now" if we simply weren't embroiled in internal corruption scandals and government overthrows. Of course, when it comes to a cricket match between the two, you're spot on.
alan_cx 14y ago
Historically, isn't the USA kinda based on being anti-British? Wasn't there some war thingy where you chaps booted us out? We get on now, don't we?
- kamakazizuru 14y ago
  precisely my point - Pakistan needs to get to that point as well, but the Indo-Pak history is significantly more complicated than the British American history. Saying - we should all get along, is simple, try telling that to the israelis and palestinians. I'd like to invite you to read up a bit about the history of India and Pakistan and their problems and the massive difference between them and the US/UK. It's easy to throw a reddit style comment on there without much understanding of the situation itself I imagine. Here's something to get you started: http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/pakistan-s-problems-are-in-pakistan-s-dna http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/pakistan-s-pro...
- conover 14y ago
  The colonies were an ocean away during the age of sail. I imagine things would have turned out quite differently if Britain was on our southern border.
  - kibwen 14y ago
    You don't even need to imagine! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 Though I'm not sure whether this supports or refutes your point... because we did start to get along pretty swimmingly once it was all over.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  No. It is based on getting out from under British colonial control, not being anti-British. India and Pakistan aren't analogous in that India does not play the role of the British Empire. They were both parts of the same British colonial possession and the circumstances of the split and the constitutional nature of Pakistan are what is at issue here.
redwood 14y ago
Similar to Bangladesh, the anti-Pakistan (e.g. the anti-anti-India). All Pakistan's problems (except the bloodshed) are worse here :(
- esalman 14y ago
  I won't compare but Bangladesh is not in a very bad shape. Compared to 20 or even 10 years back, we've made great progress. Sure everyone will talk about corruption, cost of living and power problem but the economic and industrial activities are showing sound resistance and never slowing down.
arethuza 14y ago
"The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india" Isn't that a relatively common situation for countries - especially those with a historical connection to a much larger neighbour? For example in the UK there is the well known "Anyone but the English" thing where people in Wales/Scotland/Ireland support teams in major sporting events based on this selection criteria. And the "unofficial" Scottish national anthem is about a war 700 years ago against the English.
- kamakazizuru 14y ago
  I'm not sure I know enough about Scotland / Wales / England / Ireland to fairly comment here. The key difference as I understand it at least, is that India and Pakistan did not exist as nations - ever - they were both nations created "artificially" out of the greater Indian sub-continent. India walked away with the history of the ancient indian civilization and everything from then on as its own story - Pakistan emerged as "we're not India, we're a muslim nation". I see where you're coming from - but the problems here run significantly deeper than sports rivalries!
  - arethuza 14y ago
    Scotland is currently preparing for a referendum on splitting from the UK (which really means, as far as Scots are concerned, splitting from England). In what I'm sure is a complete coincidence, the referendum is going to be in the same year as the 700th anniversary of the climactic battle of the Scottish War of Independence at Bannockburn. The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep - at least from the Scottish side, not sure that the average Englishmen cares and if they do it's probably to wish us good riddance.... :-)
    - hollerith 14y ago
      >The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep OK, but the divisions are unlikely to lead to open warfare like they have 3 times between Pak and India.
jbm 14y ago
You know, I am reading a lot of comments like this lately on HN. It is always about the same group of countries too. Whether it is the "I hate to be a hater.." comment I read last week in the article about some random Arab nation introducing better schools, or this article about Pakistan. You will notice it also in articles about Israel or other "politically charged" areas too. In short, glossing over the entire article, and then dropping in some negative meme about the area in question. Please stop it. Anti-Other-ism is not a Pakistani-only phenomena, as anyone here can attest to. An example I had was a physics professor in CEGEP who was horrified that I didn't drink. He proceeded to tell me that he "knew all about that Pakistan-India" business - through his Hindu Indian wife. Truth mixed with bigotry was the kindest way to put his newfound opinions. (Even then, it would not be fair to say that /her/ identity was based on being Anti-Pakistan or even a bigot) Really, the concept of reducing a nation's entire identity to a strong negative emotion is ridiculous. It would be about as fair as saying that the American identity is about being "Anti-Brown" or the Japanese identity is about being "alien from the rest of the world". Nonsense, except for the smallest fraction of crazies that you could find in any sufficiently large population. I'll take the critical-but-fair opinion of a third party such as Eric Schmidt over a compromised local like MJ Akbar any day.
- asto 14y ago
  Pakis have been brainwashed since birth by "education" to hate Indians and Hindus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_textbooks_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_textbooks_controversy Interestingly, here in India too we have had controversies with textbooks. Our current ruling coalition has been accused of pandering to Muslims to tap the votebank!
  - amalag 14y ago
    The past few decades show that when Pakistan has some problem (no food production, etc), they will solve it by attacking India. Lets see what the future holds, history tends to repeat itself. India has bee under external attack for thousands of years.
  - hythloday 14y ago
obtu 14y ago
This alludes to it: > The press are generally hyper-critical of the United States policies in the region and take the view that the India-US relationship is driving much of our countries behavior. It's put in diplomatic terms, but anyone from a western country will recognise it as saying that the public discourse about India (and the US) is far from rational. Your other comments are a lot more precise, so thanks.

jorahmormont 14y ago

The following article by a Pakistani-Indian is a good read and explains the fundamental problem that Pakistan faces. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230491110457644...

raheemm 14y ago

I spent a few days in Pakistan last week, specifically in Karachi. I found the people to be very polite, the city vibrant and modern (much more so than I expected), and in spite of their enormous challenges, there are pockets of growth and development (telecom, islamic banking). Like much of South Asia, these developments are in spite of the government. There also seemed to be an air of optimism about the prospects of Imran Khan becoming the next Prime Minister. I asked my taxi driver what might cause Imran Khan to lose and he mentioned if America does not want him, he wont become PM. Here is an interview of Imran Khan with Julian Assange - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacS98ATtIM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacS98ATtIM

asto 14y ago

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1]http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-blasphemy-petition_1_asia-bibi-blasphemy-salman-taseer?_s=PM:ASIA http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari [3]http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-programmer-2012-01-19 http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-...

irfan 14y ago
That exactly is the image problem Eric is talking about
- nakkiel 14y ago
  I think it's also called racism.
iuguy 14y ago
> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself. Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans? I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.

zack12 14y ago

I live in Lahore which is one of the three major cities in Pakistan. Trust me, what he says about electricity is absolutely true. Right now I am sitting which out any electricity. My internet modem is on UPS so that I can have uninterrupted internet. As far as computer is concerned, I have to religiously charge my laptop whenever there is electricity so that I can use the laptop during the load shedding times.. Since its so hot( I am sweating right now no fan, and the temperature is 50 C), my laptop heats up which usually causes my graphics card to burn out. Just bought my third laptop in last 12 months. Desktop computers are out of question.

hollerith 14y ago
50 deg C == 122 deg F.

capex 14y ago

In terms of startups, Pakistan is being let down by the banking bureaucracy. Paypal doesn't work in Pakistan, and there is no official explanation of why it is so. Lacking a mode of easy/ secure online payments, startups are kind of dead in Pakistan at this time.

slurgfest 14y ago
If you have a risky or nonexistent payment infrastructure, poor ability to enforce contracts, high inflation, high interest rates, and high risk due to corruption then it is going to be tough. Unfortunately these kinds of conditions cover most of the populated world.

omarqureshi 14y ago

British Pakistani here. Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people. Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is. This poor education leads Zardari (a corrupt politician who has ties to the murder of Murtaza Bhutto) only coming to power due to a three way effect of a sympathy vote (assassination of Benazir Bhutto), bribery and threats to people who work on his land (he is one of the largest land owners in Sindh). Nowhere else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation. The secondary problem is ALL the corruption from the upper levels of politics, to the police itself. If you're caught speeding in Pakistan, simply apologise to the officer who has caught you and slip him a few hundred rupees. Want to get out of the airport faster by not having your bags security checked? Slip 500 rupees to the security officer. Are you the prime minister of the country being investigated for money laundering? Make the lives hell for judges and lawyers. Fix the education problem and everything else will fall into place and this is something that I truly hope that PTI will do, should they on the unlikely chance get into power (I say unlikely as I envisage that the PPP will somehow manage to bullshit their way through another election).

nakkiel 14y ago
Corruption is everywhere. Pakistan is hardly different. Even in the UK you'll find corrupt politicians or entrepreneurs. Perhaps they are less so (or simply better at it?) but this simply won't stop any time soon. Education is an issue but only in the long term. Assuming Pakistan managed to overcome several of its other problems, uneducated would become Pakistan's most important resource. Uneducated people are what make industrialisation possible. They make low wages possible and so the country becomes interesting as a manufacturing base (as Thailand has become for example). With more economic activity will come education and then the country will have to find an alternative economic source. More education will also affect corruption as educated people tend to be less willing to put up with it. This is of course overly simple but for a big picture, it does hold some truth. I believe that focusing prematurely on education, is actually counter-productive as the tissue of companies in need of educated workers simply is not there and makes low wages more difficult. The West is also a good example of other issues with educated people. Countries full of educated people are more difficult to manage. For example France is badly in need of deep reforms but they will simply never happen because French would go on strike as a result of such reforms. For what it's worth, in France you'd get a 90 Euros fine for speeding on a standard road. I'm not arguing whether it's good or bad, the answer simply isn't black or white. I do know though that 90 Euros is not sustainable for many a family in France while a 250 Bath (in Thailand) is fairly cheap for car-owners.

pknerd 14y ago

A Pakistani from Karachi here. What actually amaze me most of the time that people consider Pakistan similar to Afghanistan and they believe that Pakistan == FATA region. The reality is that Fata is not even 5% of Pakistan and the region is disturbed because of invasion in Afghanistan and closed cultural ties between FATA and Afghans. Totally agree about Mobile penetration in Pakistan. It is something similar to Africa. The difference that in Pakistan there is no wider acceptance of mobile usage other than sending useless SMS and Spams. There are only 2 companies offer mobile payments and that are also not TRUE mobile payments. The technology is quite enjoyed by Pakistanis both in rural and urban areas. The biggest obstacle is corruption and politicians itself who don't let people to get educated.

planetguy 14y ago
Fifteen years ago I thought of Pakistan as "that other India". Now I think of it as "that other Afghanistan". This doesn't seem like progress.

pknerd 14y ago

Interview of Imran Khan, the budding politicians and ex successful cricket Captain, you will learn more and have more authentic view about Pakistan. Julian Assange interviews Imran Assange http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-AJIqN_r4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an-AJIqN_r4

draggnar 14y ago

Vice magazine recently went to karachi and made a fascinating documentary. The situation on the ground is pretty bad. http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-to-karachi-part-1 http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-...

ern 14y ago

the rest of Pakistan for the average citizen, much larger than the first and which is reasonably misunderstood and relatively safe; I'm not an expert on the topic, but if Karachi[1] can be regarded as "relatively safe", the Pakistan has bigger problems that I imagined. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-faultlines-exposed-killings http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-f...

DanielBMarkham 14y ago

The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to its true potential. Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution folks. I don't mean to be cynical, but the desires of the emerging middle class are going to have to compete -- perhaps with great violence -- with the desires of the established interests. That's what happens when political systems aren't able to auto-correct and run for many decades. The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country? That is, does it control its borders, is the government the sole user of force against the population, is there a place where international partners can go and ask for and receive redress when wronged by citizens of Pakistan? I don't think it is. Or if it is, it's a close call. Having said all of that negative stuff, I wish the people living in Pakistan the best. An emerging middle class, along with a decent education and unfettered internet access, is their best shot at a happier tomorrow.

urbanjunkie 14y ago
> The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country? Given that there is no real agreed definition as to what exactly a country is, it's unlikely that Schmidt could answer that. Also your definitions about what a country is are strangely arbitrary and seem to have little to do with whether a country is a country or not. But, but almost any definition of country, Pakistan is a country. It may have many problems, but it's absurd to suggest that it might not be.
srean 14y ago
I think you raise valid points. One difficult problem is (and I have faced this myself for the longest time and it is evident the Eric Schmidt is suffering from it as well) is that one tends to appraise a country along a line that mirrors one's own priors of what a country typically is. Such priors usually mirrors ones own country. Pakistan's position is really very unique and it takes time to understand it. The usual labels take very different meanings. For instance what the western world calls "middle class" almost doesn't exist in the form that they expect it to. Even if it did, it has nowhere the clout or the purchase. The country is deeply, and I do mean deeply, feudal. "Middle class" either means of a feudal family decent or of military lineage. Feudal land holdings and military are the two, and pretty much the only two centers that drives the economy and are locked in their desire to keep their privileges intact. If you are interested in this topic, do take time to find out what percentage these two forces account for. And then you have the significantly large radicalized population. And even here it is very different. You would think radical groups are fringe groups, but not quite so in Pakistan and this has been cultivated by deliberate intent over several decades. The identity of a victimized population that the world has been unfair to because of their religion gets ingrained very early in the education system. Such a belief of persecution is rampant even in the mainstream, sometimes given a modicum of a veneer. Its difficult to catch these undertones unless one is familiar with the language and reads the same newspapers that the Pakistanis read, or watch the same TV shows that Pakistanis watch. Find out about Zaid Hamid and then consider the fact that there he is as main stream as vanila ice-cream. Next word: army. It is very different from an army one would expect to see. It is a cross between a rich political party that has an unprecedentedly militarized cadre and a mafia house doling out favors (in the form of jobs and other privileges) to keep the population in control. On one hand it controls what you would call the civic life and on the other it also controls albeit at a very decentralized way the different Jihadi outfits which are again smaller mafia houses as entrenched in an economic endeavor as much as a religious one. Its common to dismiss these radical outfits as religious whackos, but you would get a better understanding if you also follow the money and see how the business side of it works. Entwined with the feudal system is a deep ethnic undercurrent and you would often find the different parties locked in a perverse game theoretic equilibrium trying to gain control. All this goes unreported in the western media, or well in their own country as well. To see what I am talking about, dig up statistics of violence related civilian (police personnel included) deaths in Karachi in the past year, and Karachi is the most liberal city there. The funniest comment by Eric Schmidt was about freedom of the press. That does not exist. Unless you have some seat of power guarding your life you cant say what you want to say at least not while residing in Pakistan. If you have interest you can follow this sarcastic blog of a faux major http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-for-peace/ http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-fo... but you have to read between the lines because beneath the sarcasm there lies a lot of deliberate thought.

siculars 14y ago

The only thing that will save Pakistan is a complete disassociation with radical Islam. That, more education and less corruption. Godspeed.