5 ms·

> Why did only Kahle do it, and why was it only Kahle coming up with CDL as an idea to prevent the death of first sale, of lending a book, of the idea of a free

by sumeno 2y ago

> Why did only Kahle do it, and why was it only Kahle coming up with CDL as an idea to prevent the death of first sale, of lending a book, of the idea of a free library in a digital future? Lots of libraries do free digital lending of ebooks in a legal way and have done so for a long time

blendergeek 2y ago
The publishers charge the libraries per lending event. This is nothing like lending physical books and the publishers fully control it.
pk-protect-ai 2y ago
And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries".
- jasode 2y ago
  >And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries" No, it's a different situation. In contrast, the government public libraries legitimately purchased ebook licenses (aka "renting") from the publishers and then "loaned" out a limited # of simultaneous copies in a legal manner. The book publishers approved this arrangement. The Internet Archive didn't do that. Instead, they "loaned" out digital scans of books they did not buy ebook licenses for and took it upon themselves to name it "Controlled Digital Lending". This method circumvents the book publishers which is the opposite of what government public libraries did. EDIT reply to: >If they have the physical book how is this any different, When I wrote, "different situation" , it's about the "legal difference" and not "philosophical difference". - situation with govt public libraries: The book publishers did not sue the public libraries that legitimately purchase ebook licenses from them. The publishers receive payments from that arrangement so there's no lawsuit for "copyright violation". - situation with Internet Archive: The book publishers sued IA for copyright violation by lending books it never purchased ebook licenses for. The circuit appeals court sided with the book publishers unanimously by a vote of 3-to-0. Those 2 situations above are different legally such that whatever precedent that's set by IA losing the case doesn't affect govt libraries that have been purchasing legitimate ebook licenses. I was trying to clarify gp's incorrect statement which could spread misinformation: "And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries"
  - sam0x17 2y ago
    If they have the physical book how is this any different, it had to be purchased at some point or donated for them to acquire it. If anything I would argue they are doing more work for the publishers by creating an ebook from scans. I also think a sane interpretation of fair use would be that the scan is a new / derivative work that is transformative, but we'll never get there with the current legal climate. Philosophically I've always been there. And yes, I would outright abolish copyrights if I could, so please don't try to what-if me, I won't care about the implications in the way you would want me to. If anything, imo to be able to hold on to a copyright you should have a burden of proof that society benefits as a whole long-term from your work remaining copyrighted, and virtually nothing meets that burden of proof.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > I also think a sane interpretation of fair use would be that the scan is a new / derivative work that is transformative The creative part being protected by copyright are the words, not the physical pages. You're not transforming the words; you're transforming the paper to bitmaps. All the words and concepts within them are the same. It's not transformative in the same way ripping a CD to an MP3 isn't transformative. If I change the font for an ebook, have I meaningfully transformed it?
      - sam0x17 2y ago
        > if I change the font for an ebook, have I meaningfully transformed it? Change one pixel and imo yes
        vel0city 2y ago
        How is a single pixel of difference in potentially hundreds of pages of text a meaningful change? It isn't changing the characters or story itself in the slightest. Please, defend that point as an actual argument that it's then somehow fair use to change one pixel of an ebook and have it be a meaningfully different work.
    - 2y ago
- hiatus 2y ago
  As I understand it, libraries with CDL have purchased licenses for the works they allow to be checked out in this way and do not scan books and lend out their digital scans.
  - thayne 2y ago
    And those licenses expire, and are more expensive than physical books. And of course, not every print book is available digitally, and not every ebook is available from the small number of vendors that license ebooks for borrowing to libraries.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      The third party ebook vendors libraries make people use for ebooks loans can also require accounts and collect data on library patrons and what they read to use for marketing, push ads, and/or to sell. None of that bullshit happens with physical copies are loaned out either.
account42 2y ago
Those libraries are subject to publisher's whims and prices in ways that they never were for paper books.
- wing-_-nuts 2y ago
  I have never understood why a digital good isn't subject to the same protections as the physical one. Honestly, this sort of behavior only encourages piracy. Oh, I don't have the same rights if I buy your ebook? Ok then, I guess I won't.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Don't they have the same protections? I think it's perfectly fine to download an ebook and mail somebody your harddrive for them to read it no? I'm not sure it's legal for you to photocopy a physical book and mail them those photocopies even if you burn your book.
    - organsnyder 2y ago
      You typically can't just mail a hard drive: you have to share access to the account that was used to purchase the ebook.
      - autoexec 2y ago
        That would likely violate the terms of service for whatever company the account was created with. Provisions against password/account sharing are pretty common.
      - lesuorac 2y ago
        Well, I'm not claiming it's practical; I'm just saying its the same. Rather than mailing your friend a hard drive, you could mail them a door key and they can come over and use your computer to read the ebook or your couch to read the book.
  - Barrin92 2y ago
creer 2y ago
> Lots of libraries do free digital lending of ebooks They don't own these books, only pay-as-you-go licenses to do exactly what they do.

by sumeno 2y ago

blendergeek 2y ago

The publishers charge the libraries per lending event. This is nothing like lending physical books and the publishers fully control it.

pk-protect-ai 2y ago

And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries".

jasode 2y ago
>And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries" No, it's a different situation. In contrast, the government public libraries legitimately purchased ebook licenses (aka "renting") from the publishers and then "loaned" out a limited # of simultaneous copies in a legal manner. The book publishers approved this arrangement. The Internet Archive didn't do that. Instead, they "loaned" out digital scans of books they did not buy ebook licenses for and took it upon themselves to name it "Controlled Digital Lending". This method circumvents the book publishers which is the opposite of what government public libraries did. EDIT reply to: >If they have the physical book how is this any different, When I wrote, "different situation" , it's about the "legal difference" and not "philosophical difference". - situation with govt public libraries: The book publishers did not sue the public libraries that legitimately purchase ebook licenses from them. The publishers receive payments from that arrangement so there's no lawsuit for "copyright violation". - situation with Internet Archive: The book publishers sued IA for copyright violation by lending books it never purchased ebook licenses for. The circuit appeals court sided with the book publishers unanimously by a vote of 3-to-0. Those 2 situations above are different legally such that whatever precedent that's set by IA losing the case doesn't affect govt libraries that have been purchasing legitimate ebook licenses. I was trying to clarify gp's incorrect statement which could spread misinformation: "And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries"
- sam0x17 2y ago
  If they have the physical book how is this any different, it had to be purchased at some point or donated for them to acquire it. If anything I would argue they are doing more work for the publishers by creating an ebook from scans. I also think a sane interpretation of fair use would be that the scan is a new / derivative work that is transformative, but we'll never get there with the current legal climate. Philosophically I've always been there. And yes, I would outright abolish copyrights if I could, so please don't try to what-if me, I won't care about the implications in the way you would want me to. If anything, imo to be able to hold on to a copyright you should have a burden of proof that society benefits as a whole long-term from your work remaining copyrighted, and virtually nothing meets that burden of proof.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > I also think a sane interpretation of fair use would be that the scan is a new / derivative work that is transformative The creative part being protected by copyright are the words, not the physical pages. You're not transforming the words; you're transforming the paper to bitmaps. All the words and concepts within them are the same. It's not transformative in the same way ripping a CD to an MP3 isn't transformative. If I change the font for an ebook, have I meaningfully transformed it?
    - sam0x17 2y ago
      > if I change the font for an ebook, have I meaningfully transformed it? Change one pixel and imo yes
      - vel0city 2y ago
        How is a single pixel of difference in potentially hundreds of pages of text a meaningful change? It isn't changing the characters or story itself in the slightest. Please, defend that point as an actual argument that it's then somehow fair use to change one pixel of an ebook and have it be a meaningfully different work.
  - 2y ago
hiatus 2y ago
As I understand it, libraries with CDL have purchased licenses for the works they allow to be checked out in this way and do not scan books and lend out their digital scans.
- thayne 2y ago
  And those licenses expire, and are more expensive than physical books. And of course, not every print book is available digitally, and not every ebook is available from the small number of vendors that license ebooks for borrowing to libraries.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    The third party ebook vendors libraries make people use for ebooks loans can also require accounts and collect data on library patrons and what they read to use for marketing, push ads, and/or to sell. None of that bullshit happens with physical copies are loaned out either.

account42 2y ago

Those libraries are subject to publisher's whims and prices in ways that they never were for paper books.

wing-_-nuts 2y ago
I have never understood why a digital good isn't subject to the same protections as the physical one. Honestly, this sort of behavior only encourages piracy. Oh, I don't have the same rights if I buy your ebook? Ok then, I guess I won't.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Don't they have the same protections? I think it's perfectly fine to download an ebook and mail somebody your harddrive for them to read it no? I'm not sure it's legal for you to photocopy a physical book and mail them those photocopies even if you burn your book.
  - organsnyder 2y ago
    You typically can't just mail a hard drive: you have to share access to the account that was used to purchase the ebook.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      That would likely violate the terms of service for whatever company the account was created with. Provisions against password/account sharing are pretty common.
    - lesuorac 2y ago
      Well, I'm not claiming it's practical; I'm just saying its the same. Rather than mailing your friend a hard drive, you could mail them a door key and they can come over and use your computer to read the ebook or your couch to read the book.
- Barrin92 2y ago

creer 2y ago

> Lots of libraries do free digital lending of ebooks They don't own these books, only pay-as-you-go licenses to do exactly what they do.