5 ms·

Brazil is being overtaken by politicians who think they are above Brazil's constitution, which is quite catastrophic since Brazil seemed to be a good (?) republ

by deburo 2y ago

Brazil is being overtaken by politicians who think they are above Brazil's constitution, which is quite catastrophic since Brazil seemed to be a good (?) republic.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mrtksn 2y ago
And how is this different from Turkey? The Turkish constitution court decisions are often not upheld, there are people in prison who are in prison despite the court ruling.
kranke155 2y ago
You're wrong. I'm Brazilian and this is nothing new. Brazil has always been intense in political lawfare. Elon just thinks he can make Brazil into an example, while he knows he would get blocked in Turkey in 2 seconds.
- deburo 2y ago
  It's not just Elon. Michael Shellenberger & TheFP for example has been reporting on this as well. You might not be impressed by the censorship happening in your country, but it's certainly worrying. I wouldn't know what to think if Canada banned Twitter. See here: https://www.thefp.com/p/matt-taibbi-on-the-global-censorship-af7 https://www.thefp.com/p/matt-taibbi-on-the-global-censorship...
  - kranke155 2y ago
    While I don't agree with Brazil doing exactly what it's doing, Elon is on the wrong on this one. The law is the law. The Supreme Court has voted unanimously. If he doesn't want to offer service there due to his morals, that's up to him. Let's be honest, the Steve Bannon connection to Brazil is probably a factor here.
    - Pedro_Ribeiro 2y ago
      He's in the wrong morally or in terms of following the law? When the supreme court is the victim, the prosecutor, the law maker, and the law aprover all at once, the only thing you need to do to break the law is not do as they say.
  - lobocinza 2y ago
    > You might not be impressed by the censorship happening in your country, but it's certainly worrying. For him the ends justify the means. Such people are more political and emotional than truthful and rational. When the current president, Lula, was (rightfully) arrested for corruption they put a show about right to due process. But clearly they don't care about right to due process and it's just another tool in a political toolbox.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      > was (rightfully) arrested Subsequent examination of the case pointed out the judge conspired with the accusation forging evidence causing many sentences, including Lula's, to be nullified. Lula's was nullified because the judge in question didn't even have jurisdiction over the case, so the forgery of evidence wasn't even litigated. The judge was subsequently named to head the Ministry of Justice for Bolsonaro, who won the election since Lula was unable to run.
      - lobocinza 2y ago
        You're biased. There was collusion between the judge and prosecutors but there was no forging. Evidence is indisputable, most of the accused made deals and confessed the crimes. The process was nullified by the same authoritarian and corrupt supreme court. I recommend anyone interested to read the page on Wikipedia. > The judge was subsequently named to head the Ministry of Justice for Bolsonaro, who won the election since Lula was unable to run. And so? Lula recently appointed his lawyer and minister of justice to the supreme court. Of 11 supreme court judges 7 were appointed by Lula and his party. Another one is a name close to his vice-president (Moraes). And even one of the two Bolsonaro appointees is a man that made career under Roussef.
        rbanffy 2y ago
        > most of the accused made deals and confessed the crimes Under duress. Prosecutors were threatening to arrest their families if they didn’t comply.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  > while he knows he would get blocked in Turkey in 2 seconds. I guarantee Turkey is a minuscule revenue source for Twitter and that he doesn't care. His position is that he obeys lawful orders rather than the extralegal and often obviously illegal means centrist administrations have been using to surveil and censor. Starlink may have changed direction simply because the Supreme Court confirmed the dictator's twitter ban.
pessimizer 2y ago
Brazil was a crushing dictatorship for a very long time, precipitated by similar frauds as this one*. The US helped that dictatorship happen by moving ships next to Brazil to back it up, and we're helping this one. If you're confused by the self-righteous of upper-middle class Brazilians about this, they had the same reaction to disappearances and torture during the dictatorship. You wouldn't dare take over a country without the support of the upper-middle class who will have to administer it. You can convince them of anything that doesn't affect their comfort at all. They supported Bolsonaro's coup, and now they'll support the destruction of freedom of speech in their country to keep Bolsonaro from speaking. They're actually beaming with pride about how they're not free to speak, similar to neocons in the US. I thought Lula was mostly a good guy, but he seems more a passenger than a president at this point. The administration must be very confident of being able to prevent future elections, because they won my a tiny margin (just as Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US), but they think they have the mandate to come down hard. Brasil nunca mais? [*] the evil of Elon Musk being a bit libertarian means that all Brazilians should be censored.
- kranke155 2y ago
  Have you ever been to Brazil?
- andsoitis 2y ago
  > They supported Bolsonaro's coup, and now they'll support the destruction of freedom of speech in their country to keep Bolsonaro from speaking. Why did they do a 180?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - tmottabr 2y ago
    they didn't.. Bolsonaro has his supporters and a share of then did ask for a military coup, but those are minority.. Majority of the country was against a coup.. But popular support changed nothing.. The military coup did not worked because the US send messages indicating they would not support it, so the air force and army commanders backed out of it..
jambajuice420 2y ago
Brazil's last president was literally an officer in the military dictatorship that ran the country for decades, and he has loudly talked about how that dictatorship should have killed like 20,000 more people. You can disagree with Lula, but idk how it gets more "above the constitution" than your job literally being to kill political opponents.
- lobocinza 2y ago
  > Brazil's last president was literally an officer in the military dictatorship that ran the country for decades Dubious. He was born in 55. Military dictatorship was from 64 and 79. At 64 he was 9 years old.
  - jambajuice420 2y ago
    Ah sorry, my bad. Nonetheless, here's a list of sourced Bolsonaro quotes including like three to the effect of "I wish that dictatorship had killed more people." https://jacobin.com/2018/10/jair-bolsonaro-quotes-brazil-election https://jacobin.com/2018/10/jair-bolsonaro-quotes-brazil-ele... (Also he says "I'm favorable to torture" and "It was a mistake to torture and not to kill." Which is it, Jair?)
    - lobocinza 2y ago
      It's no secret that Bolsonaro made a career on this kind of rhetoric but this is a tangent. Bolsonaro being a good or bad person will not make concrete authoritarian acts from the supreme court less authoritarian.
      - jambajuice420 2y ago
        I don't think the supreme court acted in an authoritarian way, they just don't have the same legal tradition as the US does. Regardless, I was responding specifically to the notion that Brazil was a thriving democracy before Lula took office, which is clearly absurd given that the last holder of that office has built his entire public persona on hating democracy.

by deburo 2y ago

Brazil is being overtaken by politicians who think they are above Brazil's constitution, which is quite catastrophic since Brazil seemed to be a good (?) republic.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mrtksn 2y ago

And how is this different from Turkey? The Turkish constitution court decisions are often not upheld, there are people in prison who are in prison despite the court ruling.

kranke155 2y ago

You're wrong. I'm Brazilian and this is nothing new. Brazil has always been intense in political lawfare. Elon just thinks he can make Brazil into an example, while he knows he would get blocked in Turkey in 2 seconds.

deburo 2y ago
It's not just Elon. Michael Shellenberger & TheFP for example has been reporting on this as well. You might not be impressed by the censorship happening in your country, but it's certainly worrying. I wouldn't know what to think if Canada banned Twitter. See here: https://www.thefp.com/p/matt-taibbi-on-the-global-censorship-af7 https://www.thefp.com/p/matt-taibbi-on-the-global-censorship...
- kranke155 2y ago
  While I don't agree with Brazil doing exactly what it's doing, Elon is on the wrong on this one. The law is the law. The Supreme Court has voted unanimously. If he doesn't want to offer service there due to his morals, that's up to him. Let's be honest, the Steve Bannon connection to Brazil is probably a factor here.
  - Pedro_Ribeiro 2y ago
    He's in the wrong morally or in terms of following the law? When the supreme court is the victim, the prosecutor, the law maker, and the law aprover all at once, the only thing you need to do to break the law is not do as they say.
- lobocinza 2y ago
  > You might not be impressed by the censorship happening in your country, but it's certainly worrying. For him the ends justify the means. Such people are more political and emotional than truthful and rational. When the current president, Lula, was (rightfully) arrested for corruption they put a show about right to due process. But clearly they don't care about right to due process and it's just another tool in a political toolbox.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > was (rightfully) arrested Subsequent examination of the case pointed out the judge conspired with the accusation forging evidence causing many sentences, including Lula's, to be nullified. Lula's was nullified because the judge in question didn't even have jurisdiction over the case, so the forgery of evidence wasn't even litigated. The judge was subsequently named to head the Ministry of Justice for Bolsonaro, who won the election since Lula was unable to run.
    - lobocinza 2y ago
      You're biased. There was collusion between the judge and prosecutors but there was no forging. Evidence is indisputable, most of the accused made deals and confessed the crimes. The process was nullified by the same authoritarian and corrupt supreme court. I recommend anyone interested to read the page on Wikipedia. > The judge was subsequently named to head the Ministry of Justice for Bolsonaro, who won the election since Lula was unable to run. And so? Lula recently appointed his lawyer and minister of justice to the supreme court. Of 11 supreme court judges 7 were appointed by Lula and his party. Another one is a name close to his vice-president (Moraes). And even one of the two Bolsonaro appointees is a man that made career under Roussef.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        > most of the accused made deals and confessed the crimes Under duress. Prosecutors were threatening to arrest their families if they didn’t comply.
pessimizer 2y ago
> while he knows he would get blocked in Turkey in 2 seconds. I guarantee Turkey is a minuscule revenue source for Twitter and that he doesn't care. His position is that he obeys lawful orders rather than the extralegal and often obviously illegal means centrist administrations have been using to surveil and censor. Starlink may have changed direction simply because the Supreme Court confirmed the dictator's twitter ban.

pessimizer 2y ago

Brazil was a crushing dictatorship for a very long time, precipitated by similar frauds as this one*. The US helped that dictatorship happen by moving ships next to Brazil to back it up, and we're helping this one. If you're confused by the self-righteous of upper-middle class Brazilians about this, they had the same reaction to disappearances and torture during the dictatorship. You wouldn't dare take over a country without the support of the upper-middle class who will have to administer it. You can convince them of anything that doesn't affect their comfort at all. They supported Bolsonaro's coup, and now they'll support the destruction of freedom of speech in their country to keep Bolsonaro from speaking. They're actually beaming with pride about how they're not free to speak, similar to neocons in the US. I thought Lula was mostly a good guy, but he seems more a passenger than a president at this point. The administration must be very confident of being able to prevent future elections, because they won my a tiny margin (just as Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US), but they think they have the mandate to come down hard. Brasil nunca mais? [*] the evil of Elon Musk being a bit libertarian means that all Brazilians should be censored.

kranke155 2y ago
Have you ever been to Brazil?
andsoitis 2y ago
> They supported Bolsonaro's coup, and now they'll support the destruction of freedom of speech in their country to keep Bolsonaro from speaking. Why did they do a 180?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tmottabr 2y ago
  they didn't.. Bolsonaro has his supporters and a share of then did ask for a military coup, but those are minority.. Majority of the country was against a coup.. But popular support changed nothing.. The military coup did not worked because the US send messages indicating they would not support it, so the air force and army commanders backed out of it..

jambajuice420 2y ago

Brazil's last president was literally an officer in the military dictatorship that ran the country for decades, and he has loudly talked about how that dictatorship should have killed like 20,000 more people. You can disagree with Lula, but idk how it gets more "above the constitution" than your job literally being to kill political opponents.

lobocinza 2y ago
> Brazil's last president was literally an officer in the military dictatorship that ran the country for decades Dubious. He was born in 55. Military dictatorship was from 64 and 79. At 64 he was 9 years old.
- jambajuice420 2y ago
  Ah sorry, my bad. Nonetheless, here's a list of sourced Bolsonaro quotes including like three to the effect of "I wish that dictatorship had killed more people." https://jacobin.com/2018/10/jair-bolsonaro-quotes-brazil-election https://jacobin.com/2018/10/jair-bolsonaro-quotes-brazil-ele... (Also he says "I'm favorable to torture" and "It was a mistake to torture and not to kill." Which is it, Jair?)
  - lobocinza 2y ago
    It's no secret that Bolsonaro made a career on this kind of rhetoric but this is a tangent. Bolsonaro being a good or bad person will not make concrete authoritarian acts from the supreme court less authoritarian.
    - jambajuice420 2y ago
      I don't think the supreme court acted in an authoritarian way, they just don't have the same legal tradition as the US does. Regardless, I was responding specifically to the notion that Brazil was a thriving democracy before Lula took office, which is clearly absurd given that the last holder of that office has built his entire public persona on hating democracy.