4 ms·

People loosing their liberties because of breaking the law — as determined by due process — is not slavery. They may feel enslaved, but again they cannot feel e

People loosing their liberties because of breaking the law — as determined by due process — is not slavery. They may feel enslaved, but again they cannot feel enslaved in any meaningful sense of the word because they are not enslaved in any meaningful sense of the word. https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/the-myth-mass-incarceration-remains-strong-despite-all-evidence-the https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/the-my...

waciki 2y ago
what are you talking about? Getting enslaved because you "broke the law" is as old as slavery
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  They are not getting enslaved. The temporary loss of liberties for conviction and sentencing happens in every single western country. This is not slavery.
  - waciki 2y ago
    I don't know if you're being good faith, prisoners are forced to work https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
    - wizzwizz4 2y ago
      > The study examined 62 private prisons contracts in 21 states. It found that the majority of these contracts guarantee that the state will supply enough prisoners to keep between 80 and 100 percent of the private prisons’ beds filled. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/do-private-prison-contracts-fuel-mass-incarceration https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/do-p... (2013)
      - flanked-evergl 2y ago
        The US does not falsely convict and jail innocent people en masse as policy. If anything. A much bigger problem is that the US does not convict and jail criminals en masse as policy. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        > Official misconduct contributed to the false convictions of 54% of defendants who were later exonerated. In general, the rate of misconduct is higher in more severe crimes. > We tried to determine whether official misconduct that contributes to false convictions has become more or less frequent over the past 15 to 20 years. For most types of misconduct, we won’t know for years to come, but we already see strong evidence that a few kinds of misconduct have become less common: violence and other misconduct in interrogations; abusive questioning of children in child sex abuse cases; and fraud in presenting forensic evidence. On the other hand, the number of federal white-collar exonerations with misconduct by prosecutors has been increasing. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Government_Misconduct_and_Convicting_the_Innocent.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Gove... (2020) > According to the cybernetician, the purpose of a system is what it does. This is a basic dictum. It stands for bald fact, which makes a better starting point in seeking understanding than the familiar attributions of good intention, prejudices about expectations, moral judgment, or sheer ignorance of circumstances. — Stafford Beer (2001) > It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. — William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England book 4: Of Public Wrongs (1768)
        flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Morality is not defined as things that come out of William Blackstone mouth.
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        That's true. (Commentaries on the Laws of England summarises a tradition older than the United States, but your point still holds.) Maybe falsely imprisoning innocents en-masse is okay, provided that (for example) the false imprisonment ratio is low enough and it could not easily be lowered further. But it being okay isn't the same as it not happening. I'm not sure why you asserted that it doesn't happen, when it's a well-known problem. See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal (2003–2008), though it's rarely that blatant.
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      No US prisoner is forced to work in any meaningful sense of the word "forced". They can just not work, they won't get beaten for it, they won't get killed for it. In some states, they are required to work. It's not the same as being forced to work. Being a criminal does not entitled them to free room and board on the taxpayer dime, in fact in a just world, society would be entitled to restitution from the criminal. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
      - waciki 2y ago
        > No US prisoner is forced to work in any meaningful sense of the word "forced". "Refusal to work can be met with solitary confinement and physical beatings" https://web.archive.org/web/20240224172720/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/01/louisiana-prison-labor-ballot-slavery/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240224172720/https://www.washi...
        flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Corporal punishment in prisons is not legal in the US[1][2][3]. Prolonged solitary confinement is being used for people who do not refuse to work as well, even for people who have not been convicted[1]. You may think it's inhumane, but it not slavery. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_v._Pelzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_v._Pelzer [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_v._McMillian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_v._McMillian [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelle_v._Gamble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelle_v._Gamble [4] https://eu.recordonline.com/story/news/local/2021/07/19/capitol-riot-suspect-edward-lang-protests-six-months-solitary-confinement/8010708002/ https://eu.recordonline.com/story/news/local/2021/07/19/capi...
      - razakel 2y ago
        >In some states, they are required to work. >It's not the same as being forced to work. That's exactly the same thing.
        2y ago
05 2y ago
> The Heritage Foundation, sometimes referred to simply as "Heritage", is an activist American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C. Yeah, thanks for that unbiased source.
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  Bias does not change facts. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    I’m not sold on this narrative. Which Republican cities are you comparing to?
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      The 10 most violent cities in the US are either democrat or independent controlled: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53991722 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53991722
      - vundercind 2y ago
        1) In part because most cities of any size are run by democrats. 2) “over 100,000 population”. This is the factor that prevents these from mostly being “red”. I assume this is because smaller cities and large towns are both more likely than large cities to be run by Republicans, and also more likely to have bad economies, which (the latter) is a pretty good predictor of crime. 3) The second graph with per-capita gets us closer to correct, the first being “this is just a population heat map” levels of useless. Note all the “blue” cities in red states in the second one. I’ve lived in such a city. It was hopelessly hobbled by the state government—anything “blue” it tried to do was outlawed at the state level as soon as they tried to do it. You can’t really treat those as experiments in Democratic governance.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
amalcon 2y ago
The 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution seems to facially disagree with you. It specifically permits criminal punishment as an exception to its ban on "slavery [or] involuntary servitude".
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  You would still have to show instances of it happening to support a claim that it's happening. Making society pay for room and board of those that have committed a crime against it is inhumane. At the bare minimum, criminals should be required (not forced) to work, as is the case in some small number of states. In addition, criminals should be expected to make some restitution to society above and beyond this. Criminals are not the victims, by definition. Society should stop treating them like victims, especially at the expense of actual innocent people.
  - JaimeThompson 2y ago
    Rosa Parks and those who got arrested simply for their skin color aren't victims?
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      Rosa parks was arrested more than 60 years ago. I'm talking about today, not 60 years ago.
  - amalcon 2y ago
    I mean, I could do that. Or I could just spend 30 seconds googling and let the ACLU do it for me: https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/2022-06-15-captivelaborresearchreport.pdf https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/2022-06... "More than 76 percent of incarcerated workers report that they are required to work or face additional punishment such as solitary confinement, denial of opportunities to reduce their sentence, and loss of family visitation, or the inability to pay for basic life necessities like bath soap. They have no right to choose what type of work they do and are subject to arbitrary, discriminatory, and punitive decisions by the prison administrators who select their work assignments." You might claim that "incarcerated workers report" isn't solid evidence, but if you read the report you'll find that much of it was confirmed by responses to FOIA requests.

waciki 2y ago

what are you talking about? Getting enslaved because you "broke the law" is as old as slavery

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
flanked-evergl 2y ago
They are not getting enslaved. The temporary loss of liberties for conviction and sentencing happens in every single western country. This is not slavery.
- waciki 2y ago
  I don't know if you're being good faith, prisoners are forced to work https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    > The study examined 62 private prisons contracts in 21 states. It found that the majority of these contracts guarantee that the state will supply enough prisoners to keep between 80 and 100 percent of the private prisons’ beds filled. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/do-private-prison-contracts-fuel-mass-incarceration https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/do-p... (2013)
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      The US does not falsely convict and jail innocent people en masse as policy. If anything. A much bigger problem is that the US does not convict and jail criminals en masse as policy. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
      - wizzwizz4 2y ago
        > Official misconduct contributed to the false convictions of 54% of defendants who were later exonerated. In general, the rate of misconduct is higher in more severe crimes. > We tried to determine whether official misconduct that contributes to false convictions has become more or less frequent over the past 15 to 20 years. For most types of misconduct, we won’t know for years to come, but we already see strong evidence that a few kinds of misconduct have become less common: violence and other misconduct in interrogations; abusive questioning of children in child sex abuse cases; and fraud in presenting forensic evidence. On the other hand, the number of federal white-collar exonerations with misconduct by prosecutors has been increasing. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Government_Misconduct_and_Convicting_the_Innocent.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Gove... (2020) > According to the cybernetician, the purpose of a system is what it does. This is a basic dictum. It stands for bald fact, which makes a better starting point in seeking understanding than the familiar attributions of good intention, prejudices about expectations, moral judgment, or sheer ignorance of circumstances. — Stafford Beer (2001) > It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. — William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England book 4: Of Public Wrongs (1768)
        flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Morality is not defined as things that come out of William Blackstone mouth.
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        That's true. (Commentaries on the Laws of England summarises a tradition older than the United States, but your point still holds.) Maybe falsely imprisoning innocents en-masse is okay, provided that (for example) the false imprisonment ratio is low enough and it could not easily be lowered further. But it being okay isn't the same as it not happening. I'm not sure why you asserted that it doesn't happen, when it's a well-known problem. See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal (2003–2008), though it's rarely that blatant.
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    No US prisoner is forced to work in any meaningful sense of the word "forced". They can just not work, they won't get beaten for it, they won't get killed for it. In some states, they are required to work. It's not the same as being forced to work. Being a criminal does not entitled them to free room and board on the taxpayer dime, in fact in a just world, society would be entitled to restitution from the criminal. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
    - waciki 2y ago
      > No US prisoner is forced to work in any meaningful sense of the word "forced". "Refusal to work can be met with solitary confinement and physical beatings" https://web.archive.org/web/20240224172720/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/01/louisiana-prison-labor-ballot-slavery/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240224172720/https://www.washi...
      - flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Corporal punishment in prisons is not legal in the US[1][2][3]. Prolonged solitary confinement is being used for people who do not refuse to work as well, even for people who have not been convicted[1]. You may think it's inhumane, but it not slavery. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_v._Pelzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_v._Pelzer [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_v._McMillian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_v._McMillian [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelle_v._Gamble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelle_v._Gamble [4] https://eu.recordonline.com/story/news/local/2021/07/19/capitol-riot-suspect-edward-lang-protests-six-months-solitary-confinement/8010708002/ https://eu.recordonline.com/story/news/local/2021/07/19/capi...
    - razakel 2y ago
      >In some states, they are required to work. >It's not the same as being forced to work. That's exactly the same thing.
      - 2y ago

05 2y ago

> The Heritage Foundation, sometimes referred to simply as "Heritage", is an activist American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C. Yeah, thanks for that unbiased source.

flanked-evergl 2y ago
Bias does not change facts. There is no better time and place to be a criminal in the US than today. Criminals are being coddled, which is why most Democrat cities are so crime-ridden.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  I’m not sold on this narrative. Which Republican cities are you comparing to?
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    The 10 most violent cities in the US are either democrat or independent controlled: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53991722 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53991722
    - vundercind 2y ago
      1) In part because most cities of any size are run by democrats. 2) “over 100,000 population”. This is the factor that prevents these from mostly being “red”. I assume this is because smaller cities and large towns are both more likely than large cities to be run by Republicans, and also more likely to have bad economies, which (the latter) is a pretty good predictor of crime. 3) The second graph with per-capita gets us closer to correct, the first being “this is just a population heat map” levels of useless. Note all the “blue” cities in red states in the second one. I’ve lived in such a city. It was hopelessly hobbled by the state government—anything “blue” it tried to do was outlawed at the state level as soon as they tried to do it. You can’t really treat those as experiments in Democratic governance.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

amalcon 2y ago

The 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution seems to facially disagree with you. It specifically permits criminal punishment as an exception to its ban on "slavery [or] involuntary servitude".

flanked-evergl 2y ago
You would still have to show instances of it happening to support a claim that it's happening. Making society pay for room and board of those that have committed a crime against it is inhumane. At the bare minimum, criminals should be required (not forced) to work, as is the case in some small number of states. In addition, criminals should be expected to make some restitution to society above and beyond this. Criminals are not the victims, by definition. Society should stop treating them like victims, especially at the expense of actual innocent people.
- JaimeThompson 2y ago
  Rosa Parks and those who got arrested simply for their skin color aren't victims?
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    Rosa parks was arrested more than 60 years ago. I'm talking about today, not 60 years ago.
- amalcon 2y ago
  I mean, I could do that. Or I could just spend 30 seconds googling and let the ACLU do it for me: https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/2022-06-15-captivelaborresearchreport.pdf https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/2022-06... "More than 76 percent of incarcerated workers report that they are required to work or face additional punishment such as solitary confinement, denial of opportunities to reduce their sentence, and loss of family visitation, or the inability to pay for basic life necessities like bath soap. They have no right to choose what type of work they do and are subject to arbitrary, discriminatory, and punitive decisions by the prison administrators who select their work assignments." You might claim that "incarcerated workers report" isn't solid evidence, but if you read the report you'll find that much of it was confirmed by responses to FOIA requests.