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>Recent immigrants tend to earn less than U.S.-born workers because of their lower level of education, lack of English, and in some cases because they are worki
by carom 2y ago
>Recent immigrants tend to earn less than U.S.-born workers because of their lower level of education, lack of English, and in some cases because they are working without permission. They might also compete with existing workers with less education and put downward pressure on their wages, too.
This is my biggest problem with immigration. It is a handout to corporations. If we think about the poorest Americans, this is doing them a massive disservice. Not that there is any shortage of jobs in tech, but you also have to wonder where the salaries would be at in tech, and how many more citizens would be training for these roles if it weren't for H-1B visa.
For the most part, America serves corporations through legislation and policy though. I dream of a country where the politicians serve the people and not companies, but I also have to wonder if the U.S. would be the economic power house that it is if things were different.
- pavlov 2y ago> "you also have to wonder where the salaries would be at in tech, and how many more citizens would be training for these roles if it weren't for H-1B visa" On the flip side, you have to wonder where the American tech industry would be without immigrants. Nvidia was founded by the son of Taiwanese parents who sent their children to live with an uncle in the US. That's one of the many immigration paths that the MAGAs want to close. Was the creation of Nvidia a "handout to corporations"? Intel sure would be happy if Jensen Huang had never made it to America.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- carom 2y agoI don't disagree, getting smart and ambitious people to move to your country is a really good policy overall. It is just worth weighing it against the opportunity cost for the citizens of the country.
- the_real_cher 2y agodoesn't it beg the question though... if they're so good for America why aren't they good for their own country?
- echelon 2y agoThe value and commensurate compensation of talent depends on location. Proximity to colleagues, decision makers, and capital.
- the_real_cher 2y agoSomebody has to sacrifice to be the first to start something like that in their own country. In America we built companies art and music out of our garages just for the love of it... not because "that's where the compensation was."
- t43562 2y agoYou guys move around for opportunity all the time.
- the_real_cher 2y agoSome not most
- pacerier 2y agoI think you meant all. All moves when disaster comes. Meanwhile where there is food there is no need to move.
- the_real_cher 2y agosome people are farmers
- the_real_cher 2y ago[flagged]
- waciki 2y ago> If an immigrant didn't start the company a legacy American like Mark Cuban or Gates would have. Or somebody in another country?
- the_real_cher 2y agoOther countries have had 20 times the population of America for centuries and yet pre H1b America invented all modern computing, the internet, etc etc as we know it. Not worried about other countries AT ALL.
- waciki 2y ago> all modern computing not true > the internet www was invented at CERN by tim berner-lee though?
- the_real_cher 2y agowell DARPA net but still I should expand my claim to say all modern computing was invented by Western countries
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoPre H1B America was still pulling a large number of people from Europe, many of whom were fleeing WWII or its aftermath. John Von Neumann, for example, was Hungarian (though he came to the US in 1930, so not a WWII refugee). Europe didn't do as much of inventing modern computing (though Bletchley Park would like a word) because it was still trying to recover from the destruction of WWII, and that set them back a decade. China and India didn't, because they were more than a decade behind. Having 20 times the population doesn't mean you're at the cutting edge.
- raverbashing 2y ago
- yunohn 2y ago> the son of Taiwanese parents who sent their children to live with an uncle in the US. That's one of the many immigration paths that the MAGAs want to close. Is this an actual immigration path that still remains open? I find it hard to believe.
- varjag 2y agoNo not really. Maybe in Ellis Island days. Most born Americans certainly have no fainest clue how hard it is to legally immigrate to the USA already.
- the_real_cher 2y agothere's a lot of businesses simply built around hacking the US immigration system. the people most likely to immigrate aren't the smartest but the people with the most money who can pay to hack the system
- varjag 2y agoThere really isn't much "hacking" going on, it's mostly fraud. Fictional marriages, fake jobs and so on. I was talking about legal ways.
- pacerier 2y agoActually it is incredibly easy. But keyword is not "productivity", it is "family". Who knew.. that the racist plan to ensure the population stays white actually had the reverse effect.. 2024 and nothing's still being done about it because That's racist doh!
- roenxi 2y agoIf you want high salaries you can just multiply all the financial numbers by 100. Then workers all get to be millionaires. Doesn't help much though; "high salaries" are one of those distractions from what matters - high living standards. The question is really whether a migrant will produce more or less over their lifetime than the resources they consume. If they produce less, then the balance has to come from existing citizens. But it has nothing to do with whether more labour is a net win for corporations or not. The problem is if they come in and do low productivity work that wasn't going to happen at all in a counterfactual where they didn't migrate.
- ajkdhg 2y agoYes, it distorts wages as a function of supply and demand. Workers cannot bargain, because corporations simply import new people. In the EU it is done by both importing people and extending the EU eastwards. The quality of life has dropped dramatically in the original EU countries.
- biorach 2y ago> The quality of life has dropped dramatically in the original EU countries. This is, on the whole, bullshit.
- spwa4 2y agoI think you'll find people in the EU compare their situation to the economic situation of their parents. That comparison goes very badly. In the 70s-80s-90s an uneducated worker could support a "suburban" house (newly built, that they'd own after 20 years or so and retire in), stay-at-home wife, car, send 2-3 kids to school and college and have money left over for a yearly holiday with 5 people. Compare that to even a current PhD making 3k euros per month with house prices starting at 300k for pretty bad (certainly not newly built) and smaller than the one their parents had, and they find they can't afford it on 2 full-time wages. So "quality of life has dropped dramatically". Yes. Yes it has. In other ways quality of life has advanced, yes, but the basics ... the basics are a disaster. And this is the situation in the most economically prosperous side of Europe. Ireland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Nordics, France, Germany. If you do the same comparison in the middle or south of France, Northern Italy or Spain it'll be 10x worse. If you do it in Portugal, Southern Italy or Greece, it'll be 100x worse, hence everybody is leaving. And if you do it in Eastern Europe it'll be even worse: everyone (who even remotely can) HAS left.
- pif 2y ago> In the 70s-80s-90s an uneducated worker could support Then the entire West started buying cheap from China and imposing rigid environmental constraints locally, and manufacturing jobs left forever.
- fooker 2y ago> how many more citizens would be training for these roles if it weren't for H-1B visa. Yeah, Indian citizens, because the tech jobs can be done there just as well for a fourth of the cost. There is a massive push within companies to make this happen.
- cherryteastain 2y ago> Recent immigrants tend to earn less than U.S.-born workers...because they are working without permission This is the real problem. The Indian PhD grad on a H1B won't create the kinds of problems in the article. Media loves to put H1B/L1/EB1/EB2 holders with random people walking in via Mexico and doing odd jobs for cash in hand in the same category when their economic impact could not be more different.
- the_real_cher 2y agoTheir economic impact is to deprive opportunities from Americans just like the people walking in from Mexico. There is a strong equivalency there. More people graduated in computer science in the United States in the last few years than ever before and they can't find jobs. Doesn't it beg the question...if they're so good for the economy in America why aren't they good for the economy in their own country?
- cherryteastain 2y ago> deprive opportunities Jury is out on this one. Japan has hardly any immigration yet their wages stagnated. Canada has a ton of immigration and their wages are also stagnant. Europe is somewhere between Japan and Canada, with also stagnant wages. Nobody disputes wages are stagnant, but the degree to which skilled immigration suppresses wages is an area where economists are unsure or even tilting towards a 'no' answer. > if they're so good for the economy in America why aren't they good for the economy in their own country There are so many jobs that are available only in industrialized countries. You won't find semiconductor fabs or airplane factories in undeveloped countries.
- the_real_cher 2y ago> wages stagnated I don't really think wages are a proxy for opportunity as central banks can make currency worthless. There's computer science graduates in America who would take a job in their field for pittances just to be working in their field. > There are so many jobs that are available only in industrialized countries Well start! Half the startups in the 90s Americans built out of their garage.
- pif 2y ago> It is a handout to corporations. You are right, but unfortunately you are not completely right. The problem lies in a universal truth: people buy cheap. A corporation that can afford lower wages is a corporation that can maintain its customer base. If American corporations stooped their effort in reducing costs, they'd lose their effort to foreign corporations with easier access to lower wages and less ecological constraints. The enemy of the poorest Americans are not the immigrants, but the richer Americans. As a thought experiment, imagine running a trade shop employing only American workers: start advertising the fact that you pay socially-acceptable wages to them; and explain your potential customers that, by paying more for the same service, they'll get the honour of helping their fellow citizens. I'm sure your phone will not ring that often!
- the_real_cher 2y ago> The enemy of the poorest Americans are not the immigrants, but the richer Americans it's both
- pacerier 2y agoTell that to the Emiratis who get to eat and sleep all day.
- jyounker 2y agoThere is an easy solution: Don't require residency for employment. Everyone is entitled to full protections of labor law, document immigrant or not. This eliminates much of the incentive to abuse non-documented labor. Then make it even stronger. If a non-resident employee brings suit against an employer for violating labor laws in a significant way, and they win, then they are entitled to citizenship as repayment for helping to enforce our labor laws.
- carom 2y agoSo now workers have unlimited competition. That sounds like it will put a lot of power in the hands of corporations in terms of being able to replace workers.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- prewett 2y agoMy understanding is that Americans aren't willing to work a lot of lower wage jobs. I think that Mexicans harvest most of the crops in California. A friend of mine in California needed roof repairs and he says that all the American workers were pretty lackadaisical, while the Mexicans worked pretty hard. I believe a lot of hotel staff are immigrants as well, and after the pandemic smaller hotels were simply unable to hire staff. Lawn care is another industry. If anything, I think immigration as regards these areas may be a handout to farmers and homeowners needing manual labor. H-1Bs are another issue, but since it's capped at something like 50k, I'm not sure how much it's really contributing to lower wages, especially given how software has some of the highest wages in the economy. I don't think the "poorest Americans" are going to be working in tech, though. I've worked with some of the kids in this category, and my conclusion is that poverty is a culture and a mindset. Those without that mindset (frequently children of immigrants) gain the skills necessary to leave.
- CrimsonCape 2y agoI interpret your story as the American workers thinking "wow, I'm not getting paid enough to deal with this s***." I also interpret your story as the children of immigrants realizing "wow, I'm not going to be paid enough to deal with the s** * my parents deal/dealt with." So they find a way to get a tech job or desk job. One could just as easily denigrate the children of immigrants as being lackadasical, but that's not necessary. Why denigrate people?
- pacerier 2y agoI'm not sure where the denigration is? > to work a lot of lower wage > all the American workers were pretty lackadaisical, while the Mexicans worked pretty hard Truth
- deepfriedchokes 2y agoThe jobs wouldn’t be lower wage in the first place if businesses didn’t have immigrants to exploit.
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