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Interviewing Tim Sweeney and Neal Stephenson
- cubefox 2y agoTopics include: virtual reality, the metaverse, Epic vs Apple, Unreal Engine 6, etc.
- whynotkeithberg 2y agoHow is this #1 with only 7 points?
- rfarley04 2y agoIt got those votes within just a couple of minutes of being submitted
- ezekg 2y agoI'm a big sci-fi reader. Snow Crash is one of those books that I really wanted to like, but I was unable to get past the odd writing style and run-on sentences. I got about half-way through but never finished it. I know some people swear by Stephenson, so maybe I should give it another chance later in life.
- ABraidotti 2y agoI'm a big sci-fi reader as well, and I'm on a tear this year after neglecting the genre for about a decade. I find Stephenson's books to take a lot of headspace, and I don't always have that. But I do like giving books another shot at my time after a few years. I finally gave Bacigalupi's The Windup Girl another attempt and I'm enjoying it much more than I thought I would.
- zeroonetwothree 2y agoIt’s not my favorite of his books. Try Cryptonomicon (if you like history/math) or Anathem (if you like sci fi/math) or The Diamond Age (if you like sci fi).
- aetherson 2y agoI think that Snow Crash is good, but those are three of his best books, too. I appear to be a little odd in liking Reamde as much as I do, but if you want something lower-concept and more thriller-like, I really enjoy Reamde.
- swells34 2y agoThose three and REAMDE (which I'm currently rereading) are just fantastic. Snow Crash was very stylized; too much for some tastes, not enough for others.
- netule 2y agoI loved REAMDE until a little more than halfway through, when it became a DNF for me.
- sangnoir 2y agoIMO, Stephenson's books are too long for the stories they tell, especially the final 25-33% - those can be a real slog. I gave up on Seveneves at about 90% or the book, reading it was no longer fun. I read a handful of his prior work to completion when I was a book completionist, so I can't tell of it says anything about the nature of the novels, or my own perseverance.
- ljlolel 2y agoI’d say the first half set up is the always the slog with his books and the best part payoff is the end.
- actionfromafar 2y agoSeveneves are very much two books. I liked the first one best.
- jorvi 2y ago
- nradclif 2y agoStephenson had a rough start in my opinion—Snow Crash isn’t really his best. Try Anathem instead. If you don’t like that, you probably won’t like Stephenson.
- airstrike 2y agoI enjoy it more for the concepts it introduced and the "food for thought" aspect than for the actual writing, if that makes sense.
- fullstop 2y agoSnow Crash was difficult for me as well, and I read a lot of sci-fi. Maybe it's not aged well since the 90s.
- garblegarble 2y agoI feel like this happens a lot with seminal works: the concepts get remixed (or simply regurgitated) by others down the decades to the point where the original often doesn't feel original to a modern viewer/reader.
- slothtrop 2y agoI don't think it aged well, speaking as a fan of Stephenson.
- lz400 2y agoAlso a big sci-fi reader. I think I lasted about 20 pages in snowcrash, something about pizza delivery or something, it was so silly it left me confused. It really soured me on trying to approach anything else by Stephenson.
- sailfast 2y agoYou're really missing out. Hiro Protagonist is a great character, and the idea of modern capitalism (Pizza delivery chains) combined with the yakuza underworld makes for some excellent cyberpunk imaginings.
- Ono-Sendai 2y agoThe initial pizza delivery segment is kind of a humorous prelude. The tone of the book changes a fair bit after that.
- d13 2y agoI had the same experience. It was absolutely juvenile; the writing style was that of precocious 7th grade student.
- slothtrop 2y agoIt's an early novel and sillier than the ones that follow. Among my least favorites, but I can appreciate it for what it is.
- Barrin92 2y agoI also read a lot of sci fi and honestly I never really got Stephenson either. In particular the most popular stuff, Anathem, Cryptonomicon, the history trilogy just has so much Encyclopedia like infodumps in it, it was a slog for me. Honestly his books that people don't talk about often I found more interesting, like Zodiac which is a shorter eco thriller and even Reamde even though it was long it at least has a really interesting plot going for it. My biggest problem with him is, and I don't really mean it as an insult, but he's like a poor man's Pynchon or Hesse. If you like maximalist and historical fiction or like reading about people in monasteries might as well pick up GR or The Glass Bead game.
- sailfast 2y agoI don't recall laughing out loud reading Siddhartha, but man I laugh my ass off every time I read Cryptonomicon, as well as a lot of his other books. They're often over-the-top wink-wink caricatures and often full of humor and clever references.
- The_Colonel 2y agoStephenson is for me a hit and miss author. I adore The Diamong Age, Anathem, Seveneves. I didn't finish the first book of Baroque Cycle and Cryptonomicon. Some of his other books I don't plan reading since I don't expect them to be good. I'd say Anathem is his best book overall, but the first 100 or so pages is almost pure world building without much action which might turn people away. Seveneves is close and is more accessible from the beginning. Just skip the last (after time jump) part of the book which is... unnecessary and bad.
- X-Istence 2y agoAnathem was almost unreadable due to the aforementioned world building but also apparently needing to redefine every single last word in the dictionary. But Cryptonomicon, Snow Crash and REAMDE were amazing.
- Carrok 2y agoAfter the time jump was fantastic. Is it directly related to the first half? Maybe not, but it's a well thought out picture of what happens as that timeline continues on. Plus it's just fun. I love the entire book (Seveneves).
- The_Colonel 2y ago> a well thought out picture of what happens as that timeline continues on TBH it seemed very ... "idealistic" in a way, "racist" would be another word, but I'd like to avoid the word's moral connotations. Just the idea that the descendants of this particular Eve are physically strong and then descendants of this Eve are intellectuals. It kinda seemed like a fairy tale instead of an actual development, which would realistically end up way more "messy".
- EdwardCoffin 2y agoMy impression was that with this part he was trying to come up with his own version of the fantasy trope of different races with different characteristics (orcs, elves, men, etc), and imagining a situation that could produce such.
- cubefox 2y agoAn odd writing style is a defining feature of the cyberpunk genre according to the canonical cyberpunk anthology "Mirror Shades" (edited by Bruce Sterling). Stephenson actually mentions the anthology in the interview. Snow Crash is relatively tame compared to some books by Williamson and Sterling. I think the idea is that you wouldn't understand everything either if you were actually transported into the future: there would be a ton of new terminologies, unfamiliar concepts, and a changed culture that takes different things to be a matter of course.
- ezekg 2y agoAh, so maybe I just don't like cyber punk then. I usually stick to hard sci-fi. :D
- NavinF 2y agoPush through the odd writing style. It gets a lot better once you understand the setting and characters a few chapters in.
- somenameforme 2y agoI had a somewhat analogous experience with Seveneves, which many people have recommended endlessly. At some point in the book, around half way IIRC, there is an event that happens which explains the title. And it goes from something like an interesting hard sci-fi, to a sort of weird meandering fantasy thing that took a nuke to my suspension of disbelief. It also felt like the book was basically two entirely different books at that point. I simply could not get into it, or passed it.
- uncanneyvalley 2y agoSeveneves is the only Stephenson book I haven’t reread, and it’s because I don’t want to encounter that event again. I suppose I understand why he made that choice, but I don’t have to like it.
- jimbob45 2y agoThought it was just me. I'm into sci-fi for the ideas and there were too few interesting ideas and too much fluff around them. Better authors have been able to communicate more interesting ideas in many less pages. It's why I think short stories are the ideal medium for sci-fi.
- oersted 2y agoDefinitely Snow Crash was challenging and shows its age. Some of his older books have similar bizarro vibes, I could not get into The Diamond Age the first try. Seveneves was much more accessible, as was The Rise and Fall of DODO, and the Baroque Cycle. Fall or Dodge in Hell is a bit more challenging but for different reasons than his early works, the subject matter is just more abstract. No doubt they are all meandering and longwinded, the newer ones perhaps more so, but that’s Stephenson, it can be a strength and a weakness.
- kreyenborgi 2y agoI too started on Snow Crash feeling like "this is going to be great", since it was recommended next to books I enjoyed like Neuromancer. But the pseudo-scientific feel of the Sumerian stuff just completely turned me off, I couldn't decide whether it was meant to be serious or a parody of really bad cyberpunk.
- QuesnayJr 2y agoIt telegraphs very strongly that it's not meant to be taken seriously. The main character's name is Hiro Protagonist, for example.
- teddyh 2y ago> The main character's name is Hiro Protagonist, for example. It actually isn’t. That is the name he works under, a sort of stage name, as he styles himself as a sort of programmer celebrity. His actual name is Hiroaki. (This is mentioned in the book.)
- Vecr 2y agoIs that true? 1) I can't remember that 2) I've never heard anyone say that 3) my grep is coming up empty. I'm not explicitly saying you're lying but I'd like more evidence.
- __rito__ 2y agoI loved Snow Crash especially because it is rare to see western scifi authors base so much of a story on early history or mythology. I have read a number of novels in Bengali that are like this, but was refreshing to see one famous book by a famous author in English.
- jmyeet 2y agoThe Metaverse is something companies want to happen (and monetize) more than any users actually want it. VR is a niche. Wearing a clumsy headset will I think pretty much always be a niche. I didn't realize Sweeney was so bullish on it. The Metaverse is a bit like federated services: it springs from some idealism rather than giving users anything they actually want or need. The Apple lawsuit, in hindsight, I think was a serious miscalculation. I think Apple's (and Google's) monopolies will end but they won't let them go willingly and it'll be worse for both companies because it'll be Congress and the EU who will decide how that works. A court action is a way to force the issue earlier under existing legislation but only if you win. And Epic most clearly did not. So Apple is emboldened. There should be no reason that Netflix or Amazon or Epic should have to pay the Apple 30% tax (it's probably less by some agreement they have) on digital purchases purely through their existing payment platforms. That seemed like the most natural way to attack the monopoly (which is both a monopoly on distribution and payments). Anyway, I put the Metaverse in the same category as the Star Trek transporter except a transporter would have utility.
- jarsin 2y ago> The Apple lawsuit, in hindsight, I think was a serious miscalculation. All because of Fortnite. A game that was a flop before they copied Pubg mechanics.
- spywaregorilla 2y agoThose poor fools and their 11 digit lifetime revenue figures
- judge2020 2y agoRoblox is a hit and that's what they wanted to replicate: you would be able to take items from game to game, but in reality that doesn't happen since 9 times out of 10 it would clash with the game's art style or reduce the value of the game's own cosmetics. Being able to create marketplace-style item trading would be a big cash cow (see: steam's fee on marketplace sales). But it's obvious why it's mostly under 18 who play it and spend money on the hats specifically to look cool or to impress others. At a certain point you realize there's not much value in it unless you enjoy specifically seeing those hats yourself whenever you use the product. In addition, roblox a third-person game, so you see your own character constantly - while a lot of value is lost in a first-person title without getting creative (e.g. weapon skins in shooters).
- superkuh 2y agoI'm kind of shocked Stephenson would associate with the kind of person that runs a company like Epic. I guess Epic's unethetical behavior is just not widely known. Epic bought Psyonix, makers of Rocket League, promised not to change anything, then 6 months later they stole the game from people who bought it for mac and linux. Now on those platforms there are no native clients for multiplayer.
- judge2020 2y agobut apple
- paulryanrogers 2y agoCould be Apple contributed if it was around the time they dropped 32bit support. I'm kind of amazed the new Doom+Doom2 re-release doesn't support even Intel Macs, despite moving to Kex. IDK whose at fault but it's lame if they let support drop and don't at least offer refunds to recent purchasers.
- mrmetanoia 2y agoI agree, Tim Sweeney sucks. It was still an interesting interview.
- cubefox 2y agoI fully agree with him on Apple. The current App Store rules are insanely anti-competitive. It is as if Microsoft would launch Windows 12 where all software, I mean apps, had to be downloaded and purchased (30% goes to MS) via the Microsoft store. Valve's Steam would be forbidden, browsers other than Edge as well.
- airstrike 2y agoNot really the same because Microsoft isn't the sole manufacturer of Windows devices
- markus_zhang 2y agoI have always believed that the Metaverse is whatever modern computing (especially the Internet) has evolved into. It has nothing to do with VR googles. You don't need AAA graphics to make an immersing world -- in fact, some text adventure games are quite immersive, and by the same principle you don't need VR to enter the Metaverse. Metaverse is escapism and alternative socializing in capital letters. For me, Metaverse in the 80s is me typing BASIC programs, playing Alley Cat, and watching a friend play Prince of Persia (in reality, not VR). Metaverse in the 90s is me borrowing pirated games from a friend and logging into BBS talking trash till early morning. It has always been here. It never left. It IS immersive. It doesn't need some VR devices to be "more" immersive. In fact, the more "modern" we become, the LESS immersive it seems to be, with all those online ads and other shits. Welcome to the Metaverse.
- Cheer2171 2y agothen we already had a word for it: media
- markus_zhang 2y agoI'd say computing media (digitized media?)
- cubefox 2y agoStephenson and Sweeney mean something else: User-generated 3D worlds where people interact with their avatars, e.g. to play games. Roblox and Fortnite are semi-early examples. VR is not required.
- readyplayernull 2y agoSecond Life was the metaverse 20 years ago, it fizzled for a reason.
- cubefox 2y agoYes, one reason was that it didn't support games, or at least not very well. Roblox and Fortnite are far more popular than SL ever was.
- sanex 2y agoEvery interview I've watched with Neal lately I feel like he's tired of talking about a concept from his 2nd (technically third but we don't talk about that) book 30 years ago. He's written so much better stuff since then and I would love to hear him talk about basically any of that.
- cubefox 2y agoHe does in the interview.
- wmf 2y agoNobody's forcing him to do interviews... or to start a metaverse startup.
- armada651 2y agohttps://youtu.be/vWRlxSGf_ns https://youtu.be/vWRlxSGf_ns
- wileydragonfly 2y agoI went to a book signing (Fall, or Dodge in Hell) and you could tell he was so worn out over discussing Snowcrash, and that was five years ago. Otherwise a very thoughtful Q&A session, though. A stark contrast from the Neil Gaiman thing I attended. I did find his vision of the internet being a dystopia of so much false information that people were hiring personal moderators to filter it very depressing and prescient. The book was a challenge, but by god I spent my money so I was finishing it. Felt like he had just discovered the book of Genesis and wanted a modern repeat of it. Always felt like you took a deep dive into Wikipedia when reading his books.
- JeremyNT 2y agoLike many Stephenson novels I've read, I felt like Fall contained a pretty good book wrapped inside a pretty bad book. I finished it, but it was a slog. I could recommend reading the first half and then switching to the Wikipedia summary to see how it concludes.
- Ono-Sendai 2y agoI'm going to plug my open-source metaverse - Substrata (https://substrata.info/ https://substrata.info/) - and talk about it a bit, since it seems relevant to a lot of the topics in this article. A single world: There is a single main Substrata world, which is filled with user-generated content and scripts. Rendering this and running physics for it is such a difficult technical problem that most other metaverses don't even try! Instead they tend to have lots of separate worlds / rooms. A single main world was important for me, partly as a result of reading Snow Crash. Technology sharing: I recently added Luau scripting, which is a fantastic Lua fork from Roblox. It allows sandboxed script execution, has a JIT mode, and has all the usual benefits of Lua (easy binding code etc.). Substrata also imports standard formats like GLTF. GLTF actually allows pretty good reuse of assets between metaverses. Crypto: Substrata optionally uses Ethereum NFTs for land - people can pay for land in Fiat, and then optionally mint the land as NFTs. The big advantage of using NFTs here is that allows land to be traded on the 'secondary market', without me having to do anything, and without my permission and involvement. If I didn't use crypto then i would need to implement some kind of marketplace myself, perhaps with an escrow system for land transfer etc, and have to deal with fraud and chargebacks etc.
- unwind 2y agoIf this was Reddit, someone would comment with just "username checks out". (In Gibson's "Neuromancer", an Ono-Sendai is a brand and/or type of cyberdeck).
- spywaregorilla 2y agoI really feel like epic games should be paying games to let people use their consistent character across games. It doesn't need to be significant. Just the metahuman mesh.
- dtaht 2y agoMy favorite book of his was actually one of his earliest - Zodiac.
- knowaveragejoe 2y ago> I think that it takes a lot of discipline in the minds of technologists to separate the good from the bad of crypto. There is actually a great deal of good in the technology, separate from the bad uses of it that we've seen over the past, and I think we should be open-minded to the learnings to be made from there. It's so hard to get past this, and it's intuitive and understandable to me why that's the case - given the state of "web3". IMO he is correct in that there are extremely interesting things going on there, but I think for many it's easier to dismiss it altogether.
- gtsnexp 2y agoIs there a recording of this conversation somewhere?
- __rito__ 2y agoI am just here to thank HN for introducing me to Neal Stephenson. My life has been made better by reading his books. It's so nice that someone writes books for smart people. All and every book I read before were for the lowest common denominator level of people. Sure, smart, educated, cultured, wise people could get more out of some of them (like Anna Karenina), but the books were written to be made accessible to each and every human. Getting to know Neal's works has brought in a paradigm shift in my reading and thinking, and now I read other authors like Greg Egan, too. Thanks to Neal for being himself. And thanks to HN for suggesting his works on books threads. I am reading Quicksilver right now, and read Anathem, Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon, Diamond Age before. Loved each one. If you are reading this comment, feel free to suggest me other authors or works, although not from Neal, as I will read ALL of his works, anyway.
- trenchgun 2y agoI can recommend for example Hannu Rajaniemi and Peter Watts
- rkachowski 2y agoseconded, the quantum thief series lives in my brain rent free
- __rito__ 2y agoThanks, I will check them out. Any more recommendations?
- trenchgun 2y agoThis was a great answer: "Stephenson: My overarching answer is that the actual market and actual users find ways to do things that we don't necessarily imagine in advance, just with our own limited perspective. And so cyberpunk had a whole aesthetic about it and still does, which to a large extent, revolved around having cool shit on your face. Mirror shades. Actually, one of the original anthologies of cyberpunk fiction was called Mirror Shades. And it was easy to assume back then that in order to truly experience a three-dimensional environment in an immersive way that you needed stereoscopy, you needed to have a different image slightly in each eyeball to give you a fully three-dimensional effect. And so there's always been this linkage in people's minds between cyberspace, the Metaverse, and goggles. What we've learned is way more nuanced and interesting than that. The year after Snow Crash came out was when Doom was released, and Doom is the ancestor of all games that are set in immersive environments [Note: Tim is nodding]. And it didn't require stereoscopy. It was all in a screen - very low resolution by current standards - and yet, the magic of the illusion was that you were running around in this three-dimensional persistent environment. And then since then, that kind of experience has only gotten better. And in the meantime, we've been learning things about goggles, about headsets and what they are and are not good at. And it took a long time for them to get to the point where [input/output] lag was acceptable. And so there's kind of this long period of time during which video games on screens were getting much, much, much better, but the acceptance of headsets was [falling] behind, because if lag is bad, you're more prone to get sick. One of the things that I became aware of when I was working at Magic Leap on AR headsets is that stereoscopy isn't enough. That your brain actually uses a lot of other cues other than stereoscopy to build a map of the three-dimensional world around you. And so people with one eye, one-eyed people can still perceive three-dimensionality, for example, because of these other mechanisms. This is a kind of a long-winded way of saying that the reality we've ended up with, which didn't seem plausible in 1990 when I was writing [Snow Crash], is that we've got billions of people fluently navigating highly realistic, immersive, three-dimensional worlds using flat screens and keyboard and mouse."
- lora_smith 2y agoI am glad to hear about Neal. As he great American Writer and I love read his books. During this journey I started learning about marketing and joined (https://balloonslane.com/ https://balloonslane.com/) for hand one experience.