10 ms·

The anarchist culture of the 1800s and 1900s in Spain, especially the emergence of anarcho-syndicalist structures [0], is certainly one of the reasons for Monda

The anarchist culture of the 1800s and 1900s in Spain, especially the emergence of anarcho-syndicalist structures [0], is certainly one of the reasons for Mondagon's existence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

api 2y ago
Why aren’t there more of these if they work well?
- harwoodjp 2y ago
  Why don't workers unite to democratically manage production? The police, propaganda, wage slavery.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - nyokodo 2y ago
    > Why don't workers unite to democratically manage production? Because the majority of workers are doing the minimum amount of work to get by, because ~50% of workers are below average intelligence, because those with the entrepreneurial skill and/or business management competence necessary to make this happen benefit more from the current system and have less motivation to mess with it.
    - harwoodjp 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - K0balt 2y ago
        I can’t speak to op’s emotional well being, but he is spot on with his reasoning. In the rarified air that most of us here inhabit, it’s easy to forget that for every college professor there is someone for whom tying their shoes is a significant cognitive challenge. For every really smart person, there is someone who lacks the cognition to participate meaningfully in society. For every brilliant individual, there is someone whose mental capacity puts them in need of lifelong care. The bell curve is a bitch. The average person just gets by and doesn’t think all that much about anything outside of their immediate surroundings. For most, politics and such is a team sport, not an intellectual pursuit. It’s an uncomfortable fact of life, and those that have talents and gifts above the norm are by default responsible for guiding and advancing society. We ignore that burden at the peril of all.
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        Your view is called Social Darwinism and it’s really dangerous/dystopian. Also collapses under scrutiny.
        nyokodo 2y ago
        > Your view is called Social Darwinism The only thing either response to your original reply have done is provide uncontroversial and non-conspiratorial reasons why Mondragons are extremely rare. Calling that Social Darwinism is like calling you a Stalinist, a slander based entirely on a superficial similarity of your rhetoric.
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        You guys are both discussing intelligence hierarchies (wtf?) without regard to actual history of popular labor movements being violently squashed.
        K0balt 2y ago
        I don’t think that asserting that intellectual capacity tends towards a bell curve distribution is an example of social Darwinism. I think that’s just called a testable hypothesis validated by a plethora of studies. As for the idea that people that bother to think about things like their social responsibility to humanity are , by default, responsible for guiding humanity (because people that don’t think about such things will not take an active role in that effort , by definition) seems also uncontroversial. In short, I have no idea what you’re on about. That said, I’m with you on labor movements, and believe that unions and coops are generally extremely positive things most of the time. I just don’t expect much from the average person anymore. Decades of observation has made me skeptical of the ability of the Everyman to act in his own best interests, on average. It’s worth mentioning that it is apparent to me that this inability is fostered in no small part by people and entities that make it their business to subvert otherwise good faith actors that don’t exercise very much independent thought into pursuing goals and supporting policies that are explicitly or covertly not in their collective best interest. Gullible people are gullible, and they are exploited all up and down the political spectrum.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    There have been over 20,000 communes set up in the US. They are not illegal. Pick one and join it. Or set your own up.
    - harwoodjp 2y ago
      Socialism is seizing the workplace from the capitalist.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Better to have a system based on creating things.
        KingMob 2y ago
        > The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Pretty damning critique of capitalists there, comrade.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        What was America like before capitalists? and after? Where did all that wealth come from, comrade?
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Did you know there used to be people who lived on that land
        WalterBright 2y ago
        I missed the railroads, steel industries, chip manufacturers, iphones, etc. that were looted from those people? BTW, studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians shows they worked hard and suffered from periodic famines, as well as a lot of violence.
- trhway 2y ago
  They don’t allow genuine innovation in any shape or form, and that in particular leads to highjacking by bureaucrats and degradation. So they may work in short term (work for some at the price of oppressing the ones who don’t fit well into the collective) - I’m from USSR for example - yet the result is predetermined.
  - dbingham 2y ago
    That is flatly false. Worker cooperatives are every bit as innovative as any other form of private corporation. These are owned by workers not a centralized government. There are quite a few of them and you may well have purchased their products with it even realizing it. Two additional examples you may have encountered are Equal Exchange and King Arthur Flour. There aren't more of them because they have a hell of a time securing financing when most businesses are financed through equity sales which they can't do.
    - trhway 2y ago
      Example of innovation please. I’ve seen first hand that no collective farm is able to produce nor SpaceX nor even EV nor even plant in time and harvest in time.
      - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        I'm not close enough to manufacturing to evaluate how innovative their approaches to factory automation are, but it's not like they're based solely on turnips: https://www.mondragon-assembly.com/automotive/ https://www.mondragon-assembly.com/automotive/
      - mikojan 2y ago
        The collective farm that produced SpaceX is the United States Government. It carried out all the research and development necessary to create and further the North American space program. And it is existential in furthering it to this day. Without this source of contracts, research projects and income SpaceX would not be able to produce its commercial spin-off products.
- captainbland 2y ago
  There are a few. There's a tech coop federation in the UK for instance. A big hurdle for efforts like this is access to finance meaning they often have to be bootstrapped.
- mikojan 2y ago
  I do not believe it is necessarily about that. It might be a lack of education (not a value statement). Socialism in Spain was not established at once. It was an effort spanning many decades. If we would suddenly find ourselves in a medieval kingdom we would certainly need time (and help) to adapt to that system. Likewise, people from that period would need time (and help) to adapt to ours. Regardless of whether it is better.
  - karaterobot 2y ago
    Note that Mondragon is not a socialist enterprise. It's not obvious to me whether you're saying it is, but I think one of the interesting things about Mondragon is that it's somewhere in between the socialist-capitalist dichotomy. If you came along and said "good news, the state is in charge of all your businesses now" they would not consider their mission accomplished.
    - mikojan 2y ago
      Socialism traditionally meant workers control over production. To the degree that Mondragon is democratic it is socialist. Socialism came to be commonly associated with "State-capitalist monopoly" (Lenin) later in the 20th century but that does not describe revolutionary Spain at all. There companies were mostly worker owned, democratically managed and freely associated within democratic regional and industrial cartels representing consumers' and producers' interests respectively. Highly advanced democratic systems. Larger companies were expropriated compulsory. Yes. But they were transferred into the ownership of the workforce. While smaller companies generally were free to operate as "private" enterprises though at a certain size that rarely made sense because all of industry was structured to serve democratically managed industrial operations.
      - karaterobot 2y ago
        Socialism is about social control over production, not worker control. That's the big difference here, so it's relevant to point out. A co-op gives you worker control within the framework of a private ownership society.
- Aunche 2y ago
  When you start a co-op, just like any other bootstrapped business, you're staking your livelihood, but you're forgoing most of the upside. You also need several other people to agree with you. This screens out most of the risk, which is why they're perceived as working well. This works out great if you're lucky enough to be employed by one, but not great for people who need a job immediately.
- davidw 2y ago
  That's a good question and it seems like it's difficult to separate from people's ideological ideas about whether they are good or bad. My hometown in Oregon had a cooperative, Burley, that made bike stuff like trailers and tandems and some clothing. Word was that it was kind of dysfunctional because of how democratic it was even if all the people cared deeply. I think they finally ended up selling out to some outfit who scrapped everything but the trailers.
- nataliste 2y ago
  The paradox of worker-coops is that workers capable of successfully running businesses together are also capable of running businesses independently, so there's no need to form a co-op. It's those incapable of running a business individually or collectively that then form co-ops. Mondragon is the exception, not the rule.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Put another way: Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own form large idol groups (eg: AKB 48) to sell themselves, while those who are become stars on their own or form small bands with others of similar success. Or to put it another way: Ground meat is great, but the components thereof by themselves are generally regarded as waste.
    - brendoelfrendo 2y ago
      This whole train of metaphors is just bizarre and wrong. Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own are never heard of or discussed. Ground meat made from poor quality meat is poor quality ground meat, and people do, in fact, grind the good stuff to make good stuff. And I'm sure that plenty of people who could start a business on their own could start a business with the help and support of like-minded partners, and might even be better off for it. I'm not sure where we get the idea that founders must be lone-wolf savants.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        >Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own are never heard of or discussed. Correct. I've definitely heard of AKB 48 and other idol groups; I have never heard anything concerning any specific member of one other than randomly showing up on a cheap variety show long after they retired ("graduated") from showbiz. >Ground meat made from poor quality meat is poor quality ground meat But it's generally preferable to the poor quality component meats, which was what I tried to allude to. >people who could start a business on their own could start a business with the help and support of like-minded partners, People with the chops to become founders on their own can also become co-founders joining with other similar people. People without the chops can't become founders without joining others to become co-founders. Basically: All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples.
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago
  Considering that I just started one, the reason is, nobody will fund it Why? Everybody with the money to start it, wants more money or special tax treatment via charity. I’m actively funding ours myself for 0% return in order to bootstrap the infrastructure we need
- SamWhited 2y ago
  There are more of them, but good design "just works" and so goes mostly unnoticed. Actually, I wonder if there's a word for this effect?
- gradschoolfail 2y ago
  A comment below suggests that they have a hard time recruiting engineers, but I believe also experts and talent in general.. There’s then also something deeper about making the trade-off between growth(rate) and stability.. OTOH photographer coops are quite common, here is a famous one https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Magnum_Photos https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Magnum_Photos
  - gaadd33 2y ago
    Does the Basque region produce more engineers than other areas? I'm guessing their issue is more tied to the demographics of the area they are in and less of the compensation side of things. It's far harder to commit to a coop where your contribution is valued thousands of miles away and you don't have the immediate stake in things (e.g. your bar, bakery, barber, etc)
    - gradschoolfail 2y ago
      You are probably right. However, if your issues are tied to local characteristics, then (in maybe an abstract way) you still have another fundamental obstacle to scalability, not related to compensation.. (FWIW i think an interesting related question is whether YC might be able to scale outside SF if they werent so into the slogan “do things that dont scale” — which i sometimes interpret as the viridical paradox “scale by not scaling”)
- anon291 2y ago
  Realistically Mondragon is rooted in Catholic social teaching (founded by a priest). Thus it requires someone to be motivated by something other than money. Religion is one of the few things that will be able to inspire such amounts of work while forgoing most economic upside. Maybe nationalism can do that, but keep in mind that when this was combined with nationalism we got Nazism (Nazism took lots of inspiration from Austrian corporatism which was similarly influenced by Catholic social teaching here). I'm not sure it's either safe or advisable to do this aside from religion
- pvaldes 2y ago
  > Why aren’t there more of these By historical reasons the Basque country has an special tax regime and economical benefits from the Spanish government. This may have an influence on the outcome. Is easier to win when the other run handicapped, and not so easy to replicate it if we remove that context. Most people also ignores that this system exists. Out of Euskadi, the name is more associated to the (in)famous band orchestre Mondragon, that was an appropriately anarchical mess, part circus, part rock band. Be afraid, very afraid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKHnjWMTNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKHnjWMTNI
thinkingtoilet 2y ago
>anarcho-syndicalist I'm sure 99% of people first heard this term in the famous Holy Grail bit. I have never seen it used in the wild. Thanks!
- kragen 2y ago
  you are overestimating the degree to which your personal social group is typical in the world by probably about a factor of 100
  - thinkingtoilet 2y ago
    I think you misunderstood. I said if someone has heard the term "anarcho-syndicalist", there is a very high chance it's from the Holy Grial. Not 99% of people in the world are familiar with the term.
    - GoodJokes 2y ago
      [dead]
    - kragen 2y ago
      you're still overestimating how much you know about the world, by a lot. in the spanish-speaking world, for example, anarcho-syndicalism is much better known than monty python (though, not among programmers, because they speak english and write python). and i'm guessing that monty python isn't that widely known among arabic speakers, russian speakers, and chinese speakers, while anarcho-syndicalism is a significant historical strain of socialism a significant number of them are acquainted with making any statement about 99% of the people who have heard of anarcho-syndicalism represents a staggering degree of unconcern for veracity, given how hard it is to get a handle on that group
      - throwaway48540 2y ago
        Monty Python is well known in Eastern Europe, much more than anarcho syndicalism.
calvinmorrison 2y ago
Probably more influenced by the Falange driving against classic capital and communist analogs. This was setup under Franco's Spain.
- tecleandor 2y ago
  But not BY Franco. Note in the article how the government removes social security support from the coops and they have to set up healthcare themselves. Arizmendiarrieta wasn't a Franco follower at all. He fought with the Republicans and went to jail during the war. After that stopped writing in Basque, as that wasn't seen with good eyes in Franco times.
  - calvinmorrison 2y ago
    Frankly, people fight on all sides during wars. 20 years later, life goes on. Franco's government was in favor of co-ops and they flourished under his government. Work syndicates, cooperatives are absolutely in line with the Falange. Straight out of the 26 points "We seek redistributing arable land in such a way as to revive family farms and give energetic encouragement to the syndicalization of farm laborers"

api 2y ago

Why aren’t there more of these if they work well?

harwoodjp 2y ago
Why don't workers unite to democratically manage production? The police, propaganda, wage slavery.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nyokodo 2y ago
  > Why don't workers unite to democratically manage production? Because the majority of workers are doing the minimum amount of work to get by, because ~50% of workers are below average intelligence, because those with the entrepreneurial skill and/or business management competence necessary to make this happen benefit more from the current system and have less motivation to mess with it.
  - harwoodjp 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - K0balt 2y ago
      I can’t speak to op’s emotional well being, but he is spot on with his reasoning. In the rarified air that most of us here inhabit, it’s easy to forget that for every college professor there is someone for whom tying their shoes is a significant cognitive challenge. For every really smart person, there is someone who lacks the cognition to participate meaningfully in society. For every brilliant individual, there is someone whose mental capacity puts them in need of lifelong care. The bell curve is a bitch. The average person just gets by and doesn’t think all that much about anything outside of their immediate surroundings. For most, politics and such is a team sport, not an intellectual pursuit. It’s an uncomfortable fact of life, and those that have talents and gifts above the norm are by default responsible for guiding and advancing society. We ignore that burden at the peril of all.
      - harwoodjp 2y ago
        Your view is called Social Darwinism and it’s really dangerous/dystopian. Also collapses under scrutiny.
        nyokodo 2y ago
        > Your view is called Social Darwinism The only thing either response to your original reply have done is provide uncontroversial and non-conspiratorial reasons why Mondragons are extremely rare. Calling that Social Darwinism is like calling you a Stalinist, a slander based entirely on a superficial similarity of your rhetoric.
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        You guys are both discussing intelligence hierarchies (wtf?) without regard to actual history of popular labor movements being violently squashed.
        K0balt 2y ago
        I don’t think that asserting that intellectual capacity tends towards a bell curve distribution is an example of social Darwinism. I think that’s just called a testable hypothesis validated by a plethora of studies. As for the idea that people that bother to think about things like their social responsibility to humanity are , by default, responsible for guiding humanity (because people that don’t think about such things will not take an active role in that effort , by definition) seems also uncontroversial. In short, I have no idea what you’re on about. That said, I’m with you on labor movements, and believe that unions and coops are generally extremely positive things most of the time. I just don’t expect much from the average person anymore. Decades of observation has made me skeptical of the ability of the Everyman to act in his own best interests, on average. It’s worth mentioning that it is apparent to me that this inability is fostered in no small part by people and entities that make it their business to subvert otherwise good faith actors that don’t exercise very much independent thought into pursuing goals and supporting policies that are explicitly or covertly not in their collective best interest. Gullible people are gullible, and they are exploited all up and down the political spectrum.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  There have been over 20,000 communes set up in the US. They are not illegal. Pick one and join it. Or set your own up.
  - harwoodjp 2y ago
    Socialism is seizing the workplace from the capitalist.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Better to have a system based on creating things.
      - KingMob 2y ago
        > The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Pretty damning critique of capitalists there, comrade.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        What was America like before capitalists? and after? Where did all that wealth come from, comrade?
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Did you know there used to be people who lived on that land
        WalterBright 2y ago
        I missed the railroads, steel industries, chip manufacturers, iphones, etc. that were looted from those people? BTW, studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians shows they worked hard and suffered from periodic famines, as well as a lot of violence.
trhway 2y ago
They don’t allow genuine innovation in any shape or form, and that in particular leads to highjacking by bureaucrats and degradation. So they may work in short term (work for some at the price of oppressing the ones who don’t fit well into the collective) - I’m from USSR for example - yet the result is predetermined.
- dbingham 2y ago
  That is flatly false. Worker cooperatives are every bit as innovative as any other form of private corporation. These are owned by workers not a centralized government. There are quite a few of them and you may well have purchased their products with it even realizing it. Two additional examples you may have encountered are Equal Exchange and King Arthur Flour. There aren't more of them because they have a hell of a time securing financing when most businesses are financed through equity sales which they can't do.
  - trhway 2y ago
    Example of innovation please. I’ve seen first hand that no collective farm is able to produce nor SpaceX nor even EV nor even plant in time and harvest in time.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      I'm not close enough to manufacturing to evaluate how innovative their approaches to factory automation are, but it's not like they're based solely on turnips: https://www.mondragon-assembly.com/automotive/ https://www.mondragon-assembly.com/automotive/
    - mikojan 2y ago
      The collective farm that produced SpaceX is the United States Government. It carried out all the research and development necessary to create and further the North American space program. And it is existential in furthering it to this day. Without this source of contracts, research projects and income SpaceX would not be able to produce its commercial spin-off products.
captainbland 2y ago
There are a few. There's a tech coop federation in the UK for instance. A big hurdle for efforts like this is access to finance meaning they often have to be bootstrapped.
mikojan 2y ago
I do not believe it is necessarily about that. It might be a lack of education (not a value statement). Socialism in Spain was not established at once. It was an effort spanning many decades. If we would suddenly find ourselves in a medieval kingdom we would certainly need time (and help) to adapt to that system. Likewise, people from that period would need time (and help) to adapt to ours. Regardless of whether it is better.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  Note that Mondragon is not a socialist enterprise. It's not obvious to me whether you're saying it is, but I think one of the interesting things about Mondragon is that it's somewhere in between the socialist-capitalist dichotomy. If you came along and said "good news, the state is in charge of all your businesses now" they would not consider their mission accomplished.
  - mikojan 2y ago
    Socialism traditionally meant workers control over production. To the degree that Mondragon is democratic it is socialist. Socialism came to be commonly associated with "State-capitalist monopoly" (Lenin) later in the 20th century but that does not describe revolutionary Spain at all. There companies were mostly worker owned, democratically managed and freely associated within democratic regional and industrial cartels representing consumers' and producers' interests respectively. Highly advanced democratic systems. Larger companies were expropriated compulsory. Yes. But they were transferred into the ownership of the workforce. While smaller companies generally were free to operate as "private" enterprises though at a certain size that rarely made sense because all of industry was structured to serve democratically managed industrial operations.
    - karaterobot 2y ago
      Socialism is about social control over production, not worker control. That's the big difference here, so it's relevant to point out. A co-op gives you worker control within the framework of a private ownership society.
Aunche 2y ago
When you start a co-op, just like any other bootstrapped business, you're staking your livelihood, but you're forgoing most of the upside. You also need several other people to agree with you. This screens out most of the risk, which is why they're perceived as working well. This works out great if you're lucky enough to be employed by one, but not great for people who need a job immediately.
davidw 2y ago
That's a good question and it seems like it's difficult to separate from people's ideological ideas about whether they are good or bad. My hometown in Oregon had a cooperative, Burley, that made bike stuff like trailers and tandems and some clothing. Word was that it was kind of dysfunctional because of how democratic it was even if all the people cared deeply. I think they finally ended up selling out to some outfit who scrapped everything but the trailers.
nataliste 2y ago
The paradox of worker-coops is that workers capable of successfully running businesses together are also capable of running businesses independently, so there's no need to form a co-op. It's those incapable of running a business individually or collectively that then form co-ops. Mondragon is the exception, not the rule.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Put another way: Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own form large idol groups (eg: AKB 48) to sell themselves, while those who are become stars on their own or form small bands with others of similar success. Or to put it another way: Ground meat is great, but the components thereof by themselves are generally regarded as waste.
  - brendoelfrendo 2y ago
    This whole train of metaphors is just bizarre and wrong. Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own are never heard of or discussed. Ground meat made from poor quality meat is poor quality ground meat, and people do, in fact, grind the good stuff to make good stuff. And I'm sure that plenty of people who could start a business on their own could start a business with the help and support of like-minded partners, and might even be better off for it. I'm not sure where we get the idea that founders must be lone-wolf savants.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      >Singers who aren't good enough to make it on their own are never heard of or discussed. Correct. I've definitely heard of AKB 48 and other idol groups; I have never heard anything concerning any specific member of one other than randomly showing up on a cheap variety show long after they retired ("graduated") from showbiz. >Ground meat made from poor quality meat is poor quality ground meat But it's generally preferable to the poor quality component meats, which was what I tried to allude to. >people who could start a business on their own could start a business with the help and support of like-minded partners, People with the chops to become founders on their own can also become co-founders joining with other similar people. People without the chops can't become founders without joining others to become co-founders. Basically: All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples.
AndrewKemendo 2y ago
Considering that I just started one, the reason is, nobody will fund it Why? Everybody with the money to start it, wants more money or special tax treatment via charity. I’m actively funding ours myself for 0% return in order to bootstrap the infrastructure we need
SamWhited 2y ago
There are more of them, but good design "just works" and so goes mostly unnoticed. Actually, I wonder if there's a word for this effect?
gradschoolfail 2y ago
A comment below suggests that they have a hard time recruiting engineers, but I believe also experts and talent in general.. There’s then also something deeper about making the trade-off between growth(rate) and stability.. OTOH photographer coops are quite common, here is a famous one https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Magnum_Photos https://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Magnum_Photos
- gaadd33 2y ago
  Does the Basque region produce more engineers than other areas? I'm guessing their issue is more tied to the demographics of the area they are in and less of the compensation side of things. It's far harder to commit to a coop where your contribution is valued thousands of miles away and you don't have the immediate stake in things (e.g. your bar, bakery, barber, etc)
  - gradschoolfail 2y ago
    You are probably right. However, if your issues are tied to local characteristics, then (in maybe an abstract way) you still have another fundamental obstacle to scalability, not related to compensation.. (FWIW i think an interesting related question is whether YC might be able to scale outside SF if they werent so into the slogan “do things that dont scale” — which i sometimes interpret as the viridical paradox “scale by not scaling”)
anon291 2y ago
Realistically Mondragon is rooted in Catholic social teaching (founded by a priest). Thus it requires someone to be motivated by something other than money. Religion is one of the few things that will be able to inspire such amounts of work while forgoing most economic upside. Maybe nationalism can do that, but keep in mind that when this was combined with nationalism we got Nazism (Nazism took lots of inspiration from Austrian corporatism which was similarly influenced by Catholic social teaching here). I'm not sure it's either safe or advisable to do this aside from religion
pvaldes 2y ago
> Why aren’t there more of these By historical reasons the Basque country has an special tax regime and economical benefits from the Spanish government. This may have an influence on the outcome. Is easier to win when the other run handicapped, and not so easy to replicate it if we remove that context. Most people also ignores that this system exists. Out of Euskadi, the name is more associated to the (in)famous band orchestre Mondragon, that was an appropriately anarchical mess, part circus, part rock band. Be afraid, very afraid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKHnjWMTNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKHnjWMTNI

thinkingtoilet 2y ago

>anarcho-syndicalist I'm sure 99% of people first heard this term in the famous Holy Grail bit. I have never seen it used in the wild. Thanks!

kragen 2y ago
you are overestimating the degree to which your personal social group is typical in the world by probably about a factor of 100
- thinkingtoilet 2y ago
  I think you misunderstood. I said if someone has heard the term "anarcho-syndicalist", there is a very high chance it's from the Holy Grial. Not 99% of people in the world are familiar with the term.
  - GoodJokes 2y ago
    [dead]
  - kragen 2y ago
    you're still overestimating how much you know about the world, by a lot. in the spanish-speaking world, for example, anarcho-syndicalism is much better known than monty python (though, not among programmers, because they speak english and write python). and i'm guessing that monty python isn't that widely known among arabic speakers, russian speakers, and chinese speakers, while anarcho-syndicalism is a significant historical strain of socialism a significant number of them are acquainted with making any statement about 99% of the people who have heard of anarcho-syndicalism represents a staggering degree of unconcern for veracity, given how hard it is to get a handle on that group
    - throwaway48540 2y ago
      Monty Python is well known in Eastern Europe, much more than anarcho syndicalism.

calvinmorrison 2y ago

Probably more influenced by the Falange driving against classic capital and communist analogs. This was setup under Franco's Spain.

tecleandor 2y ago
But not BY Franco. Note in the article how the government removes social security support from the coops and they have to set up healthcare themselves. Arizmendiarrieta wasn't a Franco follower at all. He fought with the Republicans and went to jail during the war. After that stopped writing in Basque, as that wasn't seen with good eyes in Franco times.
- calvinmorrison 2y ago
  Frankly, people fight on all sides during wars. 20 years later, life goes on. Franco's government was in favor of co-ops and they flourished under his government. Work syndicates, cooperatives are absolutely in line with the Falange. Straight out of the 26 points "We seek redistributing arable land in such a way as to revive family farms and give energetic encouragement to the syndicalization of farm laborers"