4 ms·

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it s

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

raincom 2y ago
what if chronic unemployment leads to poverty?
- advael 2y ago
  Clearly there's some correlation between poverty and unemployment, but since we didn't do an RCT there's just no way to tell causality here
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    No way to tell? Really?? It doesn't take a randomized controlled trial to know that there are more poor people who can't find work than rich chaps living on their savings or inheritance by choice.
    - advael 2y ago
      Yes, in our population samples people who have income from a job report feeling like they have more money than people who have no income from being long-term unemployed. But due the cross-sectional design of our study it's impossible to determine causality
      - wakawaka28 2y ago
        The point of my comment clearly didn't register. I'm not arguing any technical point about this study but the more obvious point that the more you work, the less poor you are. People who aren't looking for work usually aren't counted as unemployed, which would additionally contribute to the obvious outcome that working is inversely correlated with poverty. The causality (making money makes you less poor) is as obvious as rain causing wetness.
        crooked-v 2y ago
        You're arguing with sarcasm.
        advael 2y ago
        Who knows, it seems equally plausible that the argumentation lead to my posts being sarcastic in retrospect. There's just no way to tell these things!
advael 2y ago
Aye, exactly that. Even as someone who loves to do a dumb research project, it's starting to irk me how much funding can apparently go into essentially studying the various detrimental effects of poverty in exactly the same ways and concluding "well clearly poverty correlates with [broadly defined bad outcome] but there's no way to determine causality here"
nradov 2y ago
Unemployment is a specific term in economics which refers only to workers who don't have a job and are actively looking for a job. People like your friend aren't unemployed they just don't have a job.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Exactly. So the chronic effects that the study found are not linked to the lack of a job, but the lack of income that a job brings. Because people without a job but with money don't suffer those effects.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    This isn't complicated. People like the feeling of doing productive work. If you are independently wealthy, you can do whatever you want. Hobbies or volunteering, among other things, fill that need. If you are employed, you get that reward with your paycheck at least. Ideally the work itself is also rewarding, providing the satisfaction of doing something productive. This is why people can be happy doing rewarding work even if the pay isn't all that great. If you are unemployed and looking unsuccessfully for work, you have no income reward and no work accomplishment reward. If you receive unemployment benefits or UBI of some sort in that situation, it's more of a reminder that "you suck, you can't even find a job, everyone else has to support you" than anything rewarding.
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      > If you are unemployed and looking unsuccessfully for work, you have no income reward and no work accomplishment reward. If you receive unemployment benefits or UBI of some sort in that situation, it's more of a reminder that "you suck, you can't even find a job, everyone else has to support you" than anything rewarding. So you're saying that you think the chronic long-term effects found in the study are not from having little money, but from the lack of rewards? I mean, there's no data on that, so you could be right. We'd have to find a bunch of people who have little money but find their own rewards and see if they suffer the same consequences. Possibly the "starving artist" folks - people whose motivation is their art but who earn no (or very little) money doing it. Anecdotally, the ones I've met veer wildly (almost daily) between euphoria and despair. But I think that's different from the symptoms the study is talking about.
droptablemain 2y ago
If someone is not working because they received a windfall it's probably better to think of them as "retired" rather than "unemployed."
- gmd63 2y ago
  Definitely. To be classified as "unemployed" you have to be seeking work.
hluska 2y ago
Keep in mind that they’re studying unemployment whereas your anecdote is about retirement. The article argues that unemployment leads to a loss of control which leads to certain significant attitude changes. It would be quite irregular for someone who received a career ending windfall in their mid-30s to feel a lack of control. There is a whole other can of angry cobras for them.
ericjmorey 2y ago
Your friend isn't unemployed by definition.
kelnos 2y ago
Yup, 100%. Certainly there are cases where people end up with some sort of windfall and retire early, and then end up disengaged and apathetic. I think those sorts of people have been so brainwashed by societal expectations that they can't imagine how they'd fill their days without 40+ hours of someone else telling them what to do all the time. Or, worse, they've bought into the idea that employment is some sort of virtue, and even though they don't need to work, not working makes them feel bad about themselves. I think if you were to look at the disengaged and apathetic unemployed among us, more times than not you'll find that their finances are tenuous at best, and more often in complete disarray. No money, in our society, means no prospects, and constant stress and anxiety around how you're going to simply survive, let alone do anything that feels "engaging". The problem is no money and lack of a social safety net. Unemployment is related, but it's far from the whole story.

raincom 2y ago

what if chronic unemployment leads to poverty?

advael 2y ago
Clearly there's some correlation between poverty and unemployment, but since we didn't do an RCT there's just no way to tell causality here
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  No way to tell? Really?? It doesn't take a randomized controlled trial to know that there are more poor people who can't find work than rich chaps living on their savings or inheritance by choice.
  - advael 2y ago
    Yes, in our population samples people who have income from a job report feeling like they have more money than people who have no income from being long-term unemployed. But due the cross-sectional design of our study it's impossible to determine causality
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      The point of my comment clearly didn't register. I'm not arguing any technical point about this study but the more obvious point that the more you work, the less poor you are. People who aren't looking for work usually aren't counted as unemployed, which would additionally contribute to the obvious outcome that working is inversely correlated with poverty. The causality (making money makes you less poor) is as obvious as rain causing wetness.
      - crooked-v 2y ago
        You're arguing with sarcasm.
        advael 2y ago
        Who knows, it seems equally plausible that the argumentation lead to my posts being sarcastic in retrospect. There's just no way to tell these things!

advael 2y ago

Aye, exactly that. Even as someone who loves to do a dumb research project, it's starting to irk me how much funding can apparently go into essentially studying the various detrimental effects of poverty in exactly the same ways and concluding "well clearly poverty correlates with [broadly defined bad outcome] but there's no way to determine causality here"

nradov 2y ago

Unemployment is a specific term in economics which refers only to workers who don't have a job and are actively looking for a job. People like your friend aren't unemployed they just don't have a job.

marcus_holmes 2y ago
Exactly. So the chronic effects that the study found are not linked to the lack of a job, but the lack of income that a job brings. Because people without a job but with money don't suffer those effects.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  This isn't complicated. People like the feeling of doing productive work. If you are independently wealthy, you can do whatever you want. Hobbies or volunteering, among other things, fill that need. If you are employed, you get that reward with your paycheck at least. Ideally the work itself is also rewarding, providing the satisfaction of doing something productive. This is why people can be happy doing rewarding work even if the pay isn't all that great. If you are unemployed and looking unsuccessfully for work, you have no income reward and no work accomplishment reward. If you receive unemployment benefits or UBI of some sort in that situation, it's more of a reminder that "you suck, you can't even find a job, everyone else has to support you" than anything rewarding.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    > If you are unemployed and looking unsuccessfully for work, you have no income reward and no work accomplishment reward. If you receive unemployment benefits or UBI of some sort in that situation, it's more of a reminder that "you suck, you can't even find a job, everyone else has to support you" than anything rewarding. So you're saying that you think the chronic long-term effects found in the study are not from having little money, but from the lack of rewards? I mean, there's no data on that, so you could be right. We'd have to find a bunch of people who have little money but find their own rewards and see if they suffer the same consequences. Possibly the "starving artist" folks - people whose motivation is their art but who earn no (or very little) money doing it. Anecdotally, the ones I've met veer wildly (almost daily) between euphoria and despair. But I think that's different from the symptoms the study is talking about.

droptablemain 2y ago

If someone is not working because they received a windfall it's probably better to think of them as "retired" rather than "unemployed."

gmd63 2y ago
Definitely. To be classified as "unemployed" you have to be seeking work.

hluska 2y ago

Keep in mind that they’re studying unemployment whereas your anecdote is about retirement. The article argues that unemployment leads to a loss of control which leads to certain significant attitude changes. It would be quite irregular for someone who received a career ending windfall in their mid-30s to feel a lack of control. There is a whole other can of angry cobras for them.

ericjmorey 2y ago

Your friend isn't unemployed by definition.

kelnos 2y ago

Yup, 100%. Certainly there are cases where people end up with some sort of windfall and retire early, and then end up disengaged and apathetic. I think those sorts of people have been so brainwashed by societal expectations that they can't imagine how they'd fill their days without 40+ hours of someone else telling them what to do all the time. Or, worse, they've bought into the idea that employment is some sort of virtue, and even though they don't need to work, not working makes them feel bad about themselves. I think if you were to look at the disengaged and apathetic unemployed among us, more times than not you'll find that their finances are tenuous at best, and more often in complete disarray. No money, in our society, means no prospects, and constant stress and anxiety around how you're going to simply survive, let alone do anything that feels "engaging". The problem is no money and lack of a social safety net. Unemployment is related, but it's far from the whole story.