4 ms·

Yes but in practice this is not a problem because the bits that are impossible are so narrow that turning at-least-once into exactly-once is so easy it's a serv

• sulam 2y ago
  Those only work because they have retries built in at a layer that runs inside your service. You should understand this because it can have implications for the performance of your system during failures.
  • devoutsalsa 2y ago
    For example, you can have an exactly once implementation that is essentially implemented as at least once with repeated idempotent calls until a confirmation is received. Idempotency handling has a cost, confirmation reply has a cost, retry on call that didn’t have confirmation has a cost, etc.
• jclulow 2y ago
  "Redelivery versus duplicate" is doing quite a lot of work in there. This is an "at least once" delivery system providing building blocks that you can use to cope with the fact that it's physically impossible to prevent redelivery under some circumstances, which are not actually that rare because some of those circumstances are your fault, not Google's, etc.
• fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
  My experience is building streaming systems using “exactly-once delivery” primitives is much more awkward than designing your system around at least once primitives and explicitly de-duplicating using last-write wins. For one thing, LWW gives you an obvious recovery strategy if you have outages of the primitive your system is built on: a lot of the exactly once modes for tools make failure recovery harder than necessary
• strken 2y ago
  It's often not a problem because it's often easy to make a call idempotent. Consider the case where you attach an ID to every event and the subscriber stores data in postgres. You stick everything in a transaction, persist each event's ID, add a unique index to that column, handle failure, and bang, it's now idempotent.
  • withinboredom 2y ago
    And if that service called an external system but failed before committing the transaction? I’m not sure you should be using db transactions in distributed systems as you can’t recover from partial failures.
    • strken 2y ago
      It depends on what you're doing. On some projects we've put the job queue into our database, which works great at low and medium traffic volumes and means we can do exactly the same thing for external systems if they let us send them an ID. I agree that the first port of call is to make your operation legitimately idempotent without passing IDs around, and the second is to ask if it is really important enough to care about delivery, but if you're not operating at ridiculous scale and you're okay with having a single point of failure then you get to avoid the "distributed systems are hard" rule by not actually having a completely distributed system.
• camgunz 2y ago
  at-least-once/exactly-once/at-most-once delivery are all weirdly named from the wrong perspective. From the sender's perspective there are only two options: send once and send lots. Behold: - you send a message - you receive nothing back - what now There is no algorithm that lets you implement exactly-once delivery in the face of delivery instability. Either you don't resend and you implemented at-most-once, or you resend and you implemented at-least-once. You might say, "but hey, the receiver of course sends acks or checkpoints; I'm not a total buffoon". Sure. Let's game that out: - you send message 8 - you get an ack for message 7 - you receive no more acks - what now Every system you'll use that says it implements exactly-once implements send lots and has some mechanism to coalesce (i.e. make idempotent) duplicate messages.