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Amazing how often "unskilled" is used to describe those whose skills are merely low on the social prestige scale, or who are ill-positioned to ensure that they

Amazing how often "unskilled" is used to describe those whose skills are merely low on the social prestige scale, or who are ill-positioned to ensure that they & their peers get an oversized slice of the economic pie...

thaumasiotes 2y ago
Skills that are low on the prestige scale are unskilled. Skills that pay well automatically rate higher on the prestige scale. Skills that pay poorly are skills that can be easily provided by whoever, which is what "unskilled" means. I have lots of skills that would be incredibly valuable in an ant context; that doesn't mean they count as "skills" in a human context.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > Skills that pay well automatically rate higher on the prestige scale. This is pretty true. Though manual labor usually has less prestige at equal pay. > Skills that pay poorly are skills that can be easily provided by whoever This is much less true. There are plenty of skills that require a master's degree level of learning but also pay poorly.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > There are plenty of skills that require a master's degree level of learning but also pay poorly. There are many more of such masters than the market needs, so the pay drops until Demand meets Supply.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Of course. But low demand doesn't make them unskilled, right? I'm arguing against the idea that low pay/prestige makes them unskilled.
      - Ekaros 2y ago
        You could even have extremely skilled, moderately paid, but still relatively low prestige. And top of the trades pyramid go to this category. Think of specialised welders, were you need both years of expertise and probably quite a bit of aptitude... And the job is no way unskilled, but still would have less prestige in general population than some simpler job more of white collar type.
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  There is also the case of the 'outcast' skills which are currently stigmatized. Unless there is a literal caste of people stuck doing these jobs they tend to ironically have to pay better. Porn actresses get paid in part for the 'reputational damage' as even today people are deeply silly/stupid about past work. Skilled labor in terms of "needs many years training" outcast skills are practically a hypothetical, and are what I would call 'high entropy' in the sense that it would take a lot of work and rare combinations to achieve. Practically an exercise for science fiction writers to depict say, a society where say heart surgery is viewed as deeply shameful yet still managed to perfect the art of heart surgery anyway.
WalterBright 2y ago
The more skilled a person is, the fewer such persons there are. The fewer there are, the more compensation they can demand. It's the Law of Supply and Demand.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  If you hold everything equal, then changes in supply work that way. But everything else is very far from equal across different types of job, enough to make supply-based calculations basically useless.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    The market is very very good at price arbitrage. Far, far better than central economic price setting, as endless experience shows.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Seattle recently tried to set hourly rates for gig delivery drivers. It resulted in a collapse of that business, as prices went so high the demand dropped and the drivers made less.
    - analognoise 2y ago
      Is that true if the central planners had access to the digital data of Walmart, Costco, Target, Amazon, etc all at the same time? I wonder if the amount of data needed for efficient central planning is now here.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        Yes, it always applies. Even to monopoly pricing.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        The mistake make with such data is that it can predict the future. At best, if the data is fairly accurate and complete it is only a good indicator of the past. The fundamental flaw of central planning at scale is that a small number of people will sustainably predict the future well enough to plan better than if they let individuals make decisions for themselves.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

Skills that are low on the prestige scale are unskilled. Skills that pay well automatically rate higher on the prestige scale. Skills that pay poorly are skills that can be easily provided by whoever, which is what "unskilled" means. I have lots of skills that would be incredibly valuable in an ant context; that doesn't mean they count as "skills" in a human context.

Dylan16807 2y ago
> Skills that pay well automatically rate higher on the prestige scale. This is pretty true. Though manual labor usually has less prestige at equal pay. > Skills that pay poorly are skills that can be easily provided by whoever This is much less true. There are plenty of skills that require a master's degree level of learning but also pay poorly.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > There are plenty of skills that require a master's degree level of learning but also pay poorly. There are many more of such masters than the market needs, so the pay drops until Demand meets Supply.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Of course. But low demand doesn't make them unskilled, right? I'm arguing against the idea that low pay/prestige makes them unskilled.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      You could even have extremely skilled, moderately paid, but still relatively low prestige. And top of the trades pyramid go to this category. Think of specialised welders, were you need both years of expertise and probably quite a bit of aptitude... And the job is no way unskilled, but still would have less prestige in general population than some simpler job more of white collar type.
Nasrudith 2y ago
There is also the case of the 'outcast' skills which are currently stigmatized. Unless there is a literal caste of people stuck doing these jobs they tend to ironically have to pay better. Porn actresses get paid in part for the 'reputational damage' as even today people are deeply silly/stupid about past work. Skilled labor in terms of "needs many years training" outcast skills are practically a hypothetical, and are what I would call 'high entropy' in the sense that it would take a lot of work and rare combinations to achieve. Practically an exercise for science fiction writers to depict say, a society where say heart surgery is viewed as deeply shameful yet still managed to perfect the art of heart surgery anyway.

WalterBright 2y ago

The more skilled a person is, the fewer such persons there are. The fewer there are, the more compensation they can demand. It's the Law of Supply and Demand.

Dylan16807 2y ago
If you hold everything equal, then changes in supply work that way. But everything else is very far from equal across different types of job, enough to make supply-based calculations basically useless.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  The market is very very good at price arbitrage. Far, far better than central economic price setting, as endless experience shows.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Seattle recently tried to set hourly rates for gig delivery drivers. It resulted in a collapse of that business, as prices went so high the demand dropped and the drivers made less.
  - analognoise 2y ago
    Is that true if the central planners had access to the digital data of Walmart, Costco, Target, Amazon, etc all at the same time? I wonder if the amount of data needed for efficient central planning is now here.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Yes, it always applies. Even to monopoly pricing.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      The mistake make with such data is that it can predict the future. At best, if the data is fairly accurate and complete it is only a good indicator of the past. The fundamental flaw of central planning at scale is that a small number of people will sustainably predict the future well enough to plan better than if they let individuals make decisions for themselves.