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But then you're explaining virtualization and networking to your students, how to manage interactions in and out ("I wrote a program in Txtedit, how can I run i

But then you're explaining virtualization and networking to your students, how to manage interactions in and out ("I wrote a program in Txtedit, how can I run it?"), when it's started and when it's not etc. I could see giving them a remote access to a prebuilt env (which can be containerized) to be simpler to explain.

Daishiman 2y ago
In finding it very difficult to see what exactly is the problem with teaching a minimum of computer and operating system fundamentals to people that have to learn programming.
- abdullahkhalids 2y ago
  Not every person wants to become a software engineer, anymore than every person wants to learn to become a plumber or car mechanic. The vast majority, and by vast majority I mean more than 95% of students who are taught to code are training to be scientists, mathematicians, engineers, economists, accountants, or some such. They need to run simulations to understand their field. Any pain in the way of that is a failure of those who create software for a living.
  - Daishiman 2y ago
    If you're going to be spending a substantial part of your waking life working on a tool, spending a few hours to get the basics right is not an unreasonable ask. And as it turns out, all non-trivial programming languages that have some sort of packaging system or module system have some version of the problems involved. You don't see people complaining that musical instruments are unreasonably complex when that complexity usually gets solved after a couple months of training, or when someone who wants to basic woodworking has to have at least a passing knowledge of the different types of hardwoods, MDFs, and essential joinery techniques. Hate to say, but it definitely sounds like skills issues.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I'd argue it's a lot more than "minimum". You need them to be comfortable with the host system, and also manage the running container, which will have a different OS most of the time, and the virtualization mechanism (docker here). Simple things like having a student access another student's web server becomes overly complicated, as you're dealing with 4 systems talking to/through each other.
  - Daishiman 2y ago
    But the fundamental fact is that "accessing someone else's web server" is not that trivial of an affair and has never been when you get down and dirty into the details of networking.
    - makeitdouble 2y ago
      Giving access to a debug server on a local network is a single command line when running natively to the host. Sure making them understand everything is a journey, but just spawning the server is fairly quick and painless.

Daishiman 2y ago

In finding it very difficult to see what exactly is the problem with teaching a minimum of computer and operating system fundamentals to people that have to learn programming.

abdullahkhalids 2y ago
Not every person wants to become a software engineer, anymore than every person wants to learn to become a plumber or car mechanic. The vast majority, and by vast majority I mean more than 95% of students who are taught to code are training to be scientists, mathematicians, engineers, economists, accountants, or some such. They need to run simulations to understand their field. Any pain in the way of that is a failure of those who create software for a living.
- Daishiman 2y ago
  If you're going to be spending a substantial part of your waking life working on a tool, spending a few hours to get the basics right is not an unreasonable ask. And as it turns out, all non-trivial programming languages that have some sort of packaging system or module system have some version of the problems involved. You don't see people complaining that musical instruments are unreasonably complex when that complexity usually gets solved after a couple months of training, or when someone who wants to basic woodworking has to have at least a passing knowledge of the different types of hardwoods, MDFs, and essential joinery techniques. Hate to say, but it definitely sounds like skills issues.
makeitdouble 2y ago
I'd argue it's a lot more than "minimum". You need them to be comfortable with the host system, and also manage the running container, which will have a different OS most of the time, and the virtualization mechanism (docker here). Simple things like having a student access another student's web server becomes overly complicated, as you're dealing with 4 systems talking to/through each other.
- Daishiman 2y ago
  But the fundamental fact is that "accessing someone else's web server" is not that trivial of an affair and has never been when you get down and dirty into the details of networking.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Giving access to a debug server on a local network is a single command line when running natively to the host. Sure making them understand everything is a journey, but just spawning the server is fairly quick and painless.