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Plastic recycling is a myth. It is effectively impossible to do it in an economically feasible way. Recycling itself was invented by plastic companies to divert

Plastic recycling is a myth. It is effectively impossible to do it in an economically feasible way. Recycling itself was invented by plastic companies to divert blame from the company creating the plastic to the consumer. (Just recycle it!) if you don’t believe me look up the origin of the recycling symbol. Which isn’t to say recycling of meta and glass is useless. Recycling plastic is a myth, other recycling may be of some benefit.

sschueller 2y ago
Aren't we at a point where recycling aluminum is a lot more energy efficient than removing it from bauxite and therefore more profitable for the industry to pull it from trash?
- cannonpr 2y ago
  Some countries do recycling of aluminium well, Japan for example, most don’t. Issues with contamination, sorting, pipeline, storage, just to name a few make it hard to implement well.
  - foepys 2y ago
    Last time I checked modern aluminum alloys made it very hard to recycle aluminum waste efficiently. That's still the case, apparently.
    - cannonpr 2y ago
      Nearly all industrial ones yes, that’s why some countries that care a lot about recycling use easy to recycle alloys for cans, like Japan. They also religiously keep contaminants and other bits of aluminium out.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Always was, I think? At least for domestic uses, I know nothing about fancy alloys. Even when I was a kid, people were big on separating steel and aluminium cans and showing off how recyclable aluminium is.
mschuster91 2y ago
> Recycling plastic is a myth, other recycling may be of some benefit. Some?! That's just a gross understatement. For paper, recycling saves 50% of energy and 66% of water compared to pure fresh paper [1]. Glass saves about 33% of energy [2]. Iron scrap is at 72% energy savings [3], copper at 80% [4]. Aluminium is the most insane example - there, recycling saves utterly astonishing 95% (!) of the energy you'd need to create new virgin aluminium from raw ore [5]. Add to all of that: the more you recycle from these groups of valuable materials, the less environmental destruction you have from mining the ores - and the less chance there is for shit to go seriously wrong, e.g. dam breaks like [6]. The case of plastics recycling is still open, but everything else? It's just so much more efficient. [1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/haushalt-wohnen/papier-recyclingpapier#hintergrund https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/h... [2] https://www.bvse.de/glasrecycling/themen/glasrecycling-schont-die-umwelt.html https://www.bvse.de/glasrecycling/themen/glasrecycling-schon... [3] https://www.bvse.de/dateien2020/2-PDF/06-Publikationen/04-Broschueren/0608-EuRIC_Metal_Recycling_Factsheet_GER_002.pdf https://www.bvse.de/dateien2020/2-PDF/06-Publikationen/04-Br... [4] https://www.gdb-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Factsheet_Kupfer-Recycling.pdf https://www.gdb-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Factsh... [5] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/3521/dokumente/factsheet-aluminium_fi_barrierefrei.pdf https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/35... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster
- zdwolfe 2y ago
  Thanks for these stats, it changes how I think about aluminum packaging/cans.
  - crote 2y ago
    Do keep in mind that it is relative to new aluminium. It might still be far better for the environment to use other materials. For example, a plastic container might result in X emissions, a recycled aluminium one in 2X emissions, and a virgin aluminium one in 150X emissions. It just means we should absolutely recycle aluminium when used, but it doesn't by definition mean we should be using aluminium in the first place.
diggan 2y ago
> Plastic recycling is a myth. At least for another "eight to nine months from now" > But given that its operational timeline expects the processing plant to open eight to nine months from now, it means that the company will likely amass more trash before it can even open its doors They're basically stockpiling until the plant is operational. I'm not sure how they will achieve this mythical process, but at least they have more than half a year to figure it out.
- Reason077 2y ago
  > ”They're basically stockpiling until the plant is operational.” Sounds like a variant on the classic tire recycling scam: 1. Lowest bidder wins contract to recycle tires, by offering to do it cheaper than anyone else. 2. Starts storing tires somewhere while they “get up and running”. 3. Discovers it’s cheaper to just keep storing the tires than to actually process them, besides they bid too low to make it viable anyway. 4. Years go by and eventually an enormous tire mountain is discovered (or maybe it catches fire), resulting in big cleanup costs usually paid by taxpayers…
  - diggan 2y ago
    I guess somewhere there is a data to either prove or refute this. Look at all the current active recycling centers and look if they built stockpiles before. And which stockpiles actually disappeared after the center was operational, or which never started operating and the stockpile remained. If you really could uncover a conspiracy like this, I'm sure big newspapers would be happy to collaborate on releasing these news :)
    - aorloff 2y ago
      Paper mills buy cardboard bales, in the $100-200/ton (it varies a lot) I assume there is a similar market at the aluminum plant for cans, and at the glass factory. I don't think the plastic is actually an input for anything yet.
      - mulmen 2y ago
ben_w 2y ago
I know one of the people involved in this: https://sargasso-reclamation.com/ https://sargasso-reclamation.com/ If it's possible for Kenya to do this with the incidental bycatch of local fishermen, I would hope an industrialised nation could manage it with pre-sorted domestic and industrial waste.
- Vegenoid 2y ago
  Taking a look at their website, 2 things jump out to me: > A lean operation, leveraging Africa's strength in labour costs Which is of course a euphemism for "leveraging the low wages of African laborers". And: > We purchase today from out of work fisherman So it seems that this operation can exist because their costs are extremely low due to a poor local economy and a surplus of cheap labor. This does not translate to success in an industrialized first-world country.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    The second quote is why I made the reference to pre-sorted domestic and industrial waste that isn't going to need anyone to go fishing.
ifeja 2y ago
If Evian sells its water in bottles made of 100% recycled plastic, that means 100% less plastic is entering the environment from Evian bottles than would otherwise. Do you disagree?
- junga 2y ago
  Not op nor do I disagree but if recycling plastic involves lots of energy and toxic chemicals, one should compare both of these two evils.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  I do disagree. I don’t believe a food giant such as Evian to tell the truth. I don’t believe McDonalds or Starbucks either. It’s only told for advertising purpose, at least since the 80s if not more.
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  I might agree if it was actually zero sum, but as far as I know we still make new plastic from oil pumped out of the ground. Demand for recycled plastic is simply indirect demand for new plastic. Even if all plastic was recycled, there is still the issue of microplastics polluting our water and food supply.
- Symmetry 2y ago
  If a consumer is conscientious enough to recycle something, the counterfactual is that they put it in the trash rather than that they throw it into the nearest river. In a landfill, a plastic bottle will lock up its constituent carbon for hundreds of years. In that long we should either have learned to manage the amount of carbon in our biosphere. To the extent that the amount of carbon we pump out of the ground is inelastic, better it get locked up in landfills than that it get burned. Now actually it is fairly elastic but given how much worse carbon burned is than carbon stored for hundreds of years I think disposal is probably better for the climate than recycling.
  - fluoridation 2y ago
    I seem to recall that something 10% of the oil that's extracted is used to make plastics, while the rest is used for energy. Framed that way, it could be argued that it doesn't make much of a difference if it gets burned (especially if it's burned in lieu of burning some other fuel), but if it's burned there's no chance it will pollute a river or ocean.

sschueller 2y ago

Aren't we at a point where recycling aluminum is a lot more energy efficient than removing it from bauxite and therefore more profitable for the industry to pull it from trash?

cannonpr 2y ago
Some countries do recycling of aluminium well, Japan for example, most don’t. Issues with contamination, sorting, pipeline, storage, just to name a few make it hard to implement well.
- foepys 2y ago
  Last time I checked modern aluminum alloys made it very hard to recycle aluminum waste efficiently. That's still the case, apparently.
  - cannonpr 2y ago
    Nearly all industrial ones yes, that’s why some countries that care a lot about recycling use easy to recycle alloys for cans, like Japan. They also religiously keep contaminants and other bits of aluminium out.
ben_w 2y ago
Always was, I think? At least for domestic uses, I know nothing about fancy alloys. Even when I was a kid, people were big on separating steel and aluminium cans and showing off how recyclable aluminium is.

mschuster91 2y ago

> Recycling plastic is a myth, other recycling may be of some benefit. Some?! That's just a gross understatement. For paper, recycling saves 50% of energy and 66% of water compared to pure fresh paper [1]. Glass saves about 33% of energy [2]. Iron scrap is at 72% energy savings [3], copper at 80% [4]. Aluminium is the most insane example - there, recycling saves utterly astonishing 95% (!) of the energy you'd need to create new virgin aluminium from raw ore [5]. Add to all of that: the more you recycle from these groups of valuable materials, the less environmental destruction you have from mining the ores - and the less chance there is for shit to go seriously wrong, e.g. dam breaks like [6]. The case of plastics recycling is still open, but everything else? It's just so much more efficient. [1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/haushalt-wohnen/papier-recyclingpapier#hintergrund https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/h... [2] https://www.bvse.de/glasrecycling/themen/glasrecycling-schont-die-umwelt.html https://www.bvse.de/glasrecycling/themen/glasrecycling-schon... [3] https://www.bvse.de/dateien2020/2-PDF/06-Publikationen/04-Broschueren/0608-EuRIC_Metal_Recycling_Factsheet_GER_002.pdf https://www.bvse.de/dateien2020/2-PDF/06-Publikationen/04-Br... [4] https://www.gdb-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Factsheet_Kupfer-Recycling.pdf https://www.gdb-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Factsh... [5] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/3521/dokumente/factsheet-aluminium_fi_barrierefrei.pdf https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/35... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster

zdwolfe 2y ago
Thanks for these stats, it changes how I think about aluminum packaging/cans.
- crote 2y ago
  Do keep in mind that it is relative to new aluminium. It might still be far better for the environment to use other materials. For example, a plastic container might result in X emissions, a recycled aluminium one in 2X emissions, and a virgin aluminium one in 150X emissions. It just means we should absolutely recycle aluminium when used, but it doesn't by definition mean we should be using aluminium in the first place.

diggan 2y ago

> Plastic recycling is a myth. At least for another "eight to nine months from now" > But given that its operational timeline expects the processing plant to open eight to nine months from now, it means that the company will likely amass more trash before it can even open its doors They're basically stockpiling until the plant is operational. I'm not sure how they will achieve this mythical process, but at least they have more than half a year to figure it out.

Reason077 2y ago
> ”They're basically stockpiling until the plant is operational.” Sounds like a variant on the classic tire recycling scam: 1. Lowest bidder wins contract to recycle tires, by offering to do it cheaper than anyone else. 2. Starts storing tires somewhere while they “get up and running”. 3. Discovers it’s cheaper to just keep storing the tires than to actually process them, besides they bid too low to make it viable anyway. 4. Years go by and eventually an enormous tire mountain is discovered (or maybe it catches fire), resulting in big cleanup costs usually paid by taxpayers…
- diggan 2y ago
  I guess somewhere there is a data to either prove or refute this. Look at all the current active recycling centers and look if they built stockpiles before. And which stockpiles actually disappeared after the center was operational, or which never started operating and the stockpile remained. If you really could uncover a conspiracy like this, I'm sure big newspapers would be happy to collaborate on releasing these news :)
  - aorloff 2y ago
    Paper mills buy cardboard bales, in the $100-200/ton (it varies a lot) I assume there is a similar market at the aluminum plant for cans, and at the glass factory. I don't think the plastic is actually an input for anything yet.
    - mulmen 2y ago

ben_w 2y ago

I know one of the people involved in this: https://sargasso-reclamation.com/ https://sargasso-reclamation.com/ If it's possible for Kenya to do this with the incidental bycatch of local fishermen, I would hope an industrialised nation could manage it with pre-sorted domestic and industrial waste.

Vegenoid 2y ago
Taking a look at their website, 2 things jump out to me: > A lean operation, leveraging Africa's strength in labour costs Which is of course a euphemism for "leveraging the low wages of African laborers". And: > We purchase today from out of work fisherman So it seems that this operation can exist because their costs are extremely low due to a poor local economy and a surplus of cheap labor. This does not translate to success in an industrialized first-world country.
- ben_w 2y ago
  The second quote is why I made the reference to pre-sorted domestic and industrial waste that isn't going to need anyone to go fishing.

ifeja 2y ago

If Evian sells its water in bottles made of 100% recycled plastic, that means 100% less plastic is entering the environment from Evian bottles than would otherwise. Do you disagree?

junga 2y ago
Not op nor do I disagree but if recycling plastic involves lots of energy and toxic chemicals, one should compare both of these two evils.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
I do disagree. I don’t believe a food giant such as Evian to tell the truth. I don’t believe McDonalds or Starbucks either. It’s only told for advertising purpose, at least since the 80s if not more.
hamandcheese 2y ago
I might agree if it was actually zero sum, but as far as I know we still make new plastic from oil pumped out of the ground. Demand for recycled plastic is simply indirect demand for new plastic. Even if all plastic was recycled, there is still the issue of microplastics polluting our water and food supply.
Symmetry 2y ago
If a consumer is conscientious enough to recycle something, the counterfactual is that they put it in the trash rather than that they throw it into the nearest river. In a landfill, a plastic bottle will lock up its constituent carbon for hundreds of years. In that long we should either have learned to manage the amount of carbon in our biosphere. To the extent that the amount of carbon we pump out of the ground is inelastic, better it get locked up in landfills than that it get burned. Now actually it is fairly elastic but given how much worse carbon burned is than carbon stored for hundreds of years I think disposal is probably better for the climate than recycling.
- fluoridation 2y ago
  I seem to recall that something 10% of the oil that's extracted is used to make plastics, while the rest is used for energy. Framed that way, it could be argued that it doesn't make much of a difference if it gets burned (especially if it's burned in lieu of burning some other fuel), but if it's burned there's no chance it will pollute a river or ocean.