6 ms·

E Ink faces growing competition in the "paper-like" display space

145 points by pmontra 2y ago

dgan 2y ago
Anyone using large e-ink monitor for programming? I cautious about trying one because I wouldn't want to wait 1 full second every time I scroll yhe sources
- White_Wolf 2y ago
  You can get 60 Hz refresh rate these days.
- divan 2y ago
  I tried Onyx Boox Tab X e-reader (13"). It cannot be used directly as a screen, but it runs Android, so it's either some sort of screen sharing or SSH client. Onyx Boox series has its own custom refresh technology that does smart partial refreshes and thus is quite fast. So I tried actual coding once with SSH+Mosh option, just to see if it's viable, but nothing serious yet. I remember that typing was okay, but more interaction (like copilot autocompletion and tooltips in nvim) wasn't comfortable. But gonna give it more tries for sure.
- tetris11 2y ago
  I converted an old kindle to a second monitor. The refresh rate for typing console commands isn't super important, since you tend to read a command before you finally press enter.
- orlandohill 2y ago
  I've been using a 13.3" Dasung Paperlike HD-FT e-ink monitor since 2020. The refresh rate is fine for reading and writing code, and most websites are easily usable in black and white. I normally use a terminal-based text editor in light-mode with syntax colouring turned off. It's not great for detailed videos, but sometimes it's good enough. Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor. https://shop.dasung.com/ https://shop.dasung.com/
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Already widely-available e-ink devices have been capable of far better than 1 Hz refresh for years. The idea that this isn't possible has entered into the Land of HN Tropes That Will Not Die. I use an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, now three years old, with locally-installed Termux (Linux environment for Android) and remote SSH fairly frequently. It can run highly-interactive text apps, with slight ghosting, and could probably handle an X11 display as well though I've not tried that. Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. For a now-several-years-old demo of what e-ink device capabilities are, with the fastest saved for last, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4> There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.)
donatj 2y ago
Overlooking complaints of lack of backlighting, the Panic Playdate's screen IMHO is its stand out feature. It's a "Sharp Memory LCD" which has the appearance of e-ink and shares it's ability to continue to display an image when unpowered, but has the active refresh rate of a more standard LCD. It's frankly stunning to see in real life, and it's hard to describe how crisp it looks. Videos do not do it justice. It's truly unlike any other display I have seen. I would absolutely adore a kindle sized e-reader with the technology, and am hopeful the future brings one.
- e-_pusher 2y ago
  The Daylight tablet is the closest to Playdate display among the tablets listed in the article.
  - djtango 2y ago
    Some people on Reddit speculate the Daylight Computer is also a Sharp screen. Unsure whether memory LCD and IGZO are related as I'm very new to this space (and trying not to fall too deep into the rabbit hole) The play date screen is beautiful. So is the daylight computer but no colour is just a deal breaker for me unfortunately. Some charts/diagrams use colours and being unable to understand how the colour is being used is probably going to end up being too annoying in the end for my intended usage even tho I am predominantly looking to read (pdfs and blogs) For books I still prefer the real thing whenever possible EDIT source - https://old.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1dw9a7g/daylight_computer/lbxeleb/ https://old.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1dw9a7g/daylight_comp...
    - msephton 2y ago
      I ran some Daylight Computer photos from a trip to their factory through Google Lens and it was the Sharp factory in Japan. No doubt. It seems that they took a certain Sharp screen and simply took off the colour layer. Citation needed.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  So Sharp Memory LCD isn't quite unpowered, but it is measured in hundreds of microwatts of power.... Nearly power free. And this is while updating the screen. EInk is truly 0 energy to hold an image.... but each refresh uses a lot of energy. IIRC, the breakeven vs Sharps memory LCD was like 15-minute refreshes. ---------- Many battery packs have internal leakage in the ~50 microwatts region just a magnitude below to the power needed for Memory LCD. So Sharp Memory LCD is close to the point where we stop caring about power consumption at all. But not QUITE zero or otherwise ignored. Still very impressive how low they got.
intothemild 2y ago
I love eink displays, I also love the MIP display on my Garmin. I'm excited for where these technologies go.
- Ciantic 2y ago
  Yes, I loved MIP models too. I'm really annoyed that the last Gramin Forerunner watch with an MIP display was 955, and it's now discontinued and was recently removed from Garmin's website. All their new models have OLED, and I kind of understand as it looks better indoors but wastes a huge amount of battery when used outside. I would have preferred they investigate some of these newer LCD screens that can work reflectively and optionally with backlights on.
  - intothemild 2y ago
    I'm a long distance runner. So my requirements are slightly different than the average person. But that said. It seems to me Garmin's strategy is clear, the Forerunner and even the Fenix lines are going to be OLED. Where as the Enduro is the MIP line. Sure there's a MIP Fenix 8, but I feel like that might be something that eventually goes as more people who are newer to sports watches, the people transitioning over from Apple or Google watches.. those people who see 7 days battery life and think "wow" where as we look at the GPS always on time and think "more please". The absolute pick of this generation is the Enduro 3 now. It's cheaper, lasts waaaaay longer, and does everything we want. Fenix 8? Dive computer, and the ability to take calls? No thanks. I just want more battery life, and better solar thanks.
    - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
      I have no idea how Garmin markets outdoor activity watches with OLED screens.
  - sirsinsalot 2y ago
    Yeah my forerunner 955 MIP was the sweet spot of size and battery life. Sadly the battery lifespan is fairly short on those too. I went for the Instinct 2 next purely to avoid the OLED infestation.
WithinReason 2y ago
Instead of reflecting ambient light, why not measure it and then emit the same amount? It should be indistinguishable (as long as you reconstruct the RGB colors properly), so you can use a regular OLED display.
- prollings 2y ago
  I dunno, I can barely see my OLED phone's screen when I'm using it on full brightness in the sun.
- tetris11 2y ago
  I like the idea for indoor devices, but the illusion will be immediately broken as soon as you pick up and move around the device unless the ambient light sensor is polling at a high rate
- consp 2y ago
  Battery life is still affected with emissive displays.
- tliltocatl 2y ago
  It's not about chroma, its' about luma. You would need pretty powerful backlight to match ambient on a sunny day. It will burn battery pretty quickly and require unrealistic cooling.
- kwhitefoot 2y ago
  Because a sunny day at the equator is about a kilowatt per square metre. A typical mobile phone display is about 100 cm^2 (0.01 m^2), so you would need to emit 10 watts to match sunlight. As far as I can tell OLEDs are 20% efficient or less so you would need an input power of 50 W. Even at 60 deg. N where I live we get over 300 W/m^2 in August so would still need about 15 W of input power to the display.
  - WithinReason 2y ago
    Just aim the light at the user's face and those power requirements reduce by 99% :)
mcbetz 2y ago
Any first-hand experiences with the Nxtpaper devices? There's a lot of press coverage of the release official material, especially on the 14 inch model, but few actual reviews. Availability or even infos on availability is an issue, at least in Europe as well.
- djtango 2y ago
  I just ordered the nxtpaper 11 arrives next week so will post back later. I was torn between the HannsNote2 and Nxtpaper 11 but the battery life for the HannsNote2 is apparently less than 3 hours which I think is not going to cut it for a device which is meant to take me away from my phone I ordered the nxtpaper from TechInn - I think they ship global
  - djtango 2y ago
    For anyone that was interested my Nxtpaper 11 finally arrived. I am annoyed because I realised the Nxtpaper 11 is available on amazon.de the product listing was just buried because it hadn't bubbled up the search and its name isn't great for search. Have only used it a few hours so some initial thoughts: - this is my first ever real tablet but its heavier than I thought, its a bit awkward to read one handed especially without anything to grip, I might get one of those hand bands to get a lightweight grip - the tablet is noticeably slow, you can see some slight frame choppiness when scrolling in Substack for example, but obviously way better than an eink reader - the Nxtvision settings for reading mode and eye comfort mode are quite nice. Images and figures in documents look pleasingly "flat" - the resolution is noticeably low, I do notice the DPI is not that crisp when reading PDFs - I like the matte screen texture it is quite pleasing - reading code on it via Github was quite fun/pleasant All things considered for 250 Euros its probably worth a try if you're not too fussy. I can live with the shortcomings, this is a sufficiently niche space that it'll take a while for the perfect product to drop out. I'd love to get my hands on a Hannsnote 2 to compare
  - afandian 2y ago
    I’m very close to getting a HannsNote 2. The battery life is disappointing, but it is very thin (maybe unnecessarily so). It’s no hardship to carry around a battery in a bag. I have a crazy idea about VNC or SSH in which case a host laptop might not be very far away anyway.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
It would be nice to see somebody do a device that isn't crippled in terms of hardware and software. In my experience, most hardware companies aren't very good at software and vice versa. Apple seems a rare exception to this rule. I'd love a laptop that I can use outside. Even my current macbook pro isn't that good outside. It kind of works but it's not that comfortable on the eyes. And that's supposed to be a screen that is suitable for this. My kindle on the other hand I can use sitting in the sun wearing sun glasses. Not a problem. Not that I do that a lot, I stick to the shadows. But we've had some nice warm temperatures here in the last few weeks and it sucks having to sit indoors to be able to do work. I'd much rather be in some nice garden or park. I'd probably buy anything with a decent amount of hardware power and a good screen like this. I'm OK installing linux on it. Not a problem. I can deal with external batteries and extension cords if needed. But I need my laptop to be fast and have decent keyboards and touch pads. But it seems all the companies in this space fall in the trap of trying to be Apple and then failing miserably on both the hardware and software front. Slow/outdated CPUs, crippled by anemic amounts of memory, paired with somebody's take on how to do Android, etc. When the screen is just about the only thing about a device that isn't shit, it's still a shit product overall.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > It would be nice to see somebody do a device that isn't crippled in terms of hardware and software. Have a look at PineNote.
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    > Powered by a powerful and efficient RK3566 SoC with four A55 cores, and backed by 4GBs of RAM and 128GBs of eMMC storage Exactly what I mean by anemic. The only likable thing in that device is the screen.
    - user_7832 2y ago
      Likely not the reply you were looking for, but in theory a PineNote would be a great "donor" device for modification. For example - get your favorite SBC (Raspberry 5?), figure out how to connect it (likely eDP, documentation shouldn't be hard), make a new shell/body and you're done! ...If you have the technical know-how, time, space, tools and motivation of course. It's not that no one does such stuff (see r/cyberdeck), but yeah admittedly if you're not an engineer it likely isn't the easiest.
IWeldMelons 2y ago
the main bernefit of eink for me is that battery life is so much better.
- okasaki 2y ago
  That's not as relevant as it used to be though. My android tablet lasts for a week of reading and charges from 30% to 60% in 5 minutes.
  - IWeldMelons 2y ago
    At what weight though. Eink devices are super light.
    - okasaki 2y ago
      Not really. My Lenovo Y700 tablet is 375g, and my Kobo Aura One is 230g The Y700 has a bigger screen and is 100x better at everything though.
      - IWeldMelons 2y ago
        as if being 1.6 heavier does not matter? Or 1/3rd of price? I can hold kobo libra 2 with one hand, the battery lasts long, PPI is high, what to not like?
        okasaki 2y ago
        The Y700 came with a rubber case which makes it significantly easier to hold than the plastic Kobo. The metal body and minimal bezels also look much more premium. It's also _extremely_ better at everything, including for reading books, so the higher weight and (2x, not 3x) cost are well worth it. The Kobo battery doesn't even last that long with the backlight and wifi on, and at least mine wipes its storage and OS when the battery runs down completely. The screen and UI are also the worst thing imaginable. Using eink devices is basically equivalent to torture.
londons_explore 2y ago
Readers might be interested in this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006647598296.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006647598296.html never used it, but am considering getting it to lay on top of my laptop screen for outdoor coding. One of the reviewers seems to suggest it is made out of the CPU etc from an old bitcoin miner which is no longer economic to run, but with an extra circuit board added, which is a neat way to get value out of old electronics!
- squarefoot 2y ago
  Uses a XC7Z010 SoC which also contains a FPGA. https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview Searching the board name "EBAZ4205" brings some interesting results. https://github.com/xjtuecho/EBAZ4205 https://github.com/xjtuecho/EBAZ4205 https://theokelo.co.ke/getting-starting-with-ebaz4205-zynq-7000/ https://theokelo.co.ke/getting-starting-with-ebaz4205-zynq-7... https://github.com/XyleMora/EBAZ4205 https://github.com/XyleMora/EBAZ4205 https://hackaday.io/project/187351-cheap-35-and-powerful-fpga-programming https://hackaday.io/project/187351-cheap-35-and-powerful-fpg... http://cholla.mmto.org/ebaz4205/ http://cholla.mmto.org/ebaz4205/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ebaz4205-(zynq-7000-based-development-board)/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ebaz4205-(zynq-7000-based... https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/kmk9f9/ebaz4205_recycle_a_cheap_cryptominer_part_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/kmk9f9/ebaz4205_recyc... ...etc. About €30 on Aliexpress, so it's cheap. Edit: corrected the €10 mistake.
  - SSLy 2y ago
    now it's 110€ for me, did we splashdot-effect it?
    - squarefoot 2y ago
      Quite possible in many cases as some sellers monitor well known places for links and raise their prices as soon as there's interest, but it doesn't seem the case here as I still see the same prices. Have you clicked to the actual board? Asking because many prices aren't unrelated to the photo returned by a search and point to either a much cheaper product sold either bundled or alone (a programming cable for example) or a more pricey complete kit. This is what misled me to the €10 initial price because I saw the main board while if memory serves the actual product was a smaller accessory card. By the way, I still see it around €30 plus 3 to 10 shipping on Ebay from several sellers in China. not publishing links for the above reasons.
globular-toast 2y ago
E-ink is special because it has basically no downsides when compared to paper. This makes it perfect for reading regular black and white books and for the vast majority of readers it's all they need. As soon as you try to do more, there are tradeoffs, like with anything else. I've never found a screen to be anywhere near as good as paper for writing (unless it comes with a keyboard, but even then it's not as good for drawing pictures etc). So it's just another device that might work for you, but might not. I can't see it replacing eink unless it has literally no downsides (including cost).
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  It has some downsides compared to paper: 1. White paper is significantly whiter than white e-ink 2. Black ink is significantly darker than black e-ink 3. Large A4-size e-ink displays are expensive 4. Large e-ink displays are sensitive and can break, you have to handle with a lot of care But otherwise there are tremendous advantages over paper. And with a textured screen cover, writing on e-ink is just as comfortable as writing on paper.
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    I should have been more specific. I think it has (virtually) no downsides compared to a standard paperback book. I very much enjoy high quality and larger scale printing that is certainly not achievable on any screen, including e-ink. Also, when it comes to textbooks and references, books are simply a better technology than screens, in my opinion. But, again, this isn't specific to e-ink. I haven't tried writing on e-ink. Is it better than the most expensive Apple tablets? Any time I've tried the lag is noticeable and I can't stand it.
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      Writing on recent e-ink tablets is like writing on paper. The lag is difficult to notice. I don't know how it compares to Apple tablets.
      - 2y ago
jszymborski 2y ago
I loved the reflective LCD screen on my pebble time. Glad folks are rediscovering it.
allanren 2y ago
I had a e-reader, it's just to slow to run anything except reading books. Not sure if the new color screen will improve the experience.
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mcdonje 2y ago
Front lighting isn't always ideal because it increases the distance between the screen and the user and makes it feel less paperlike, which is why Remarkable isn't front lit. It also uses power. Both types of displays don't need power for light, which is a huge advantage. The power advantage e-ink has is not needing power to retain an image. While that's a requirement for some use cases, they should both have very low power consumption compared to backlit lcd screens.
est 2y ago
eink display with 8 colors should be perfect for coding. Just good enough colors to highlight terminal or code editor. The refresh rate is fine for cursor based UIs.

145 points by pmontra 2y ago

dgan 2y ago

Anyone using large e-ink monitor for programming? I cautious about trying one because I wouldn't want to wait 1 full second every time I scroll yhe sources

White_Wolf 2y ago
You can get 60 Hz refresh rate these days.
divan 2y ago
I tried Onyx Boox Tab X e-reader (13"). It cannot be used directly as a screen, but it runs Android, so it's either some sort of screen sharing or SSH client. Onyx Boox series has its own custom refresh technology that does smart partial refreshes and thus is quite fast. So I tried actual coding once with SSH+Mosh option, just to see if it's viable, but nothing serious yet. I remember that typing was okay, but more interaction (like copilot autocompletion and tooltips in nvim) wasn't comfortable. But gonna give it more tries for sure.
tetris11 2y ago
I converted an old kindle to a second monitor. The refresh rate for typing console commands isn't super important, since you tend to read a command before you finally press enter.
orlandohill 2y ago
I've been using a 13.3" Dasung Paperlike HD-FT e-ink monitor since 2020. The refresh rate is fine for reading and writing code, and most websites are easily usable in black and white. I normally use a terminal-based text editor in light-mode with syntax colouring turned off. It's not great for detailed videos, but sometimes it's good enough. Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor. https://shop.dasung.com/ https://shop.dasung.com/
dredmorbius 2y ago
Already widely-available e-ink devices have been capable of far better than 1 Hz refresh for years. The idea that this isn't possible has entered into the Land of HN Tropes That Will Not Die. I use an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, now three years old, with locally-installed Termux (Linux environment for Android) and remote SSH fairly frequently. It can run highly-interactive text apps, with slight ghosting, and could probably handle an X11 display as well though I've not tried that. Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. For a now-several-years-old demo of what e-ink device capabilities are, with the fastest saved for last, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4> There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.)

donatj 2y ago

Overlooking complaints of lack of backlighting, the Panic Playdate's screen IMHO is its stand out feature. It's a "Sharp Memory LCD" which has the appearance of e-ink and shares it's ability to continue to display an image when unpowered, but has the active refresh rate of a more standard LCD. It's frankly stunning to see in real life, and it's hard to describe how crisp it looks. Videos do not do it justice. It's truly unlike any other display I have seen. I would absolutely adore a kindle sized e-reader with the technology, and am hopeful the future brings one.

e-_pusher 2y ago
The Daylight tablet is the closest to Playdate display among the tablets listed in the article.
- djtango 2y ago
  Some people on Reddit speculate the Daylight Computer is also a Sharp screen. Unsure whether memory LCD and IGZO are related as I'm very new to this space (and trying not to fall too deep into the rabbit hole) The play date screen is beautiful. So is the daylight computer but no colour is just a deal breaker for me unfortunately. Some charts/diagrams use colours and being unable to understand how the colour is being used is probably going to end up being too annoying in the end for my intended usage even tho I am predominantly looking to read (pdfs and blogs) For books I still prefer the real thing whenever possible EDIT source - https://old.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1dw9a7g/daylight_computer/lbxeleb/ https://old.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1dw9a7g/daylight_comp...
  - msephton 2y ago
    I ran some Daylight Computer photos from a trip to their factory through Google Lens and it was the Sharp factory in Japan. No doubt. It seems that they took a certain Sharp screen and simply took off the colour layer. Citation needed.
dragontamer 2y ago
So Sharp Memory LCD isn't quite unpowered, but it is measured in hundreds of microwatts of power.... Nearly power free. And this is while updating the screen. EInk is truly 0 energy to hold an image.... but each refresh uses a lot of energy. IIRC, the breakeven vs Sharps memory LCD was like 15-minute refreshes. ---------- Many battery packs have internal leakage in the ~50 microwatts region just a magnitude below to the power needed for Memory LCD. So Sharp Memory LCD is close to the point where we stop caring about power consumption at all. But not QUITE zero or otherwise ignored. Still very impressive how low they got.

intothemild 2y ago

I love eink displays, I also love the MIP display on my Garmin. I'm excited for where these technologies go.

Ciantic 2y ago
Yes, I loved MIP models too. I'm really annoyed that the last Gramin Forerunner watch with an MIP display was 955, and it's now discontinued and was recently removed from Garmin's website. All their new models have OLED, and I kind of understand as it looks better indoors but wastes a huge amount of battery when used outside. I would have preferred they investigate some of these newer LCD screens that can work reflectively and optionally with backlights on.
- intothemild 2y ago
  I'm a long distance runner. So my requirements are slightly different than the average person. But that said. It seems to me Garmin's strategy is clear, the Forerunner and even the Fenix lines are going to be OLED. Where as the Enduro is the MIP line. Sure there's a MIP Fenix 8, but I feel like that might be something that eventually goes as more people who are newer to sports watches, the people transitioning over from Apple or Google watches.. those people who see 7 days battery life and think "wow" where as we look at the GPS always on time and think "more please". The absolute pick of this generation is the Enduro 3 now. It's cheaper, lasts waaaaay longer, and does everything we want. Fenix 8? Dive computer, and the ability to take calls? No thanks. I just want more battery life, and better solar thanks.
  - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    I have no idea how Garmin markets outdoor activity watches with OLED screens.
- sirsinsalot 2y ago
  Yeah my forerunner 955 MIP was the sweet spot of size and battery life. Sadly the battery lifespan is fairly short on those too. I went for the Instinct 2 next purely to avoid the OLED infestation.

WithinReason 2y ago

Instead of reflecting ambient light, why not measure it and then emit the same amount? It should be indistinguishable (as long as you reconstruct the RGB colors properly), so you can use a regular OLED display.

prollings 2y ago
I dunno, I can barely see my OLED phone's screen when I'm using it on full brightness in the sun.
tetris11 2y ago
I like the idea for indoor devices, but the illusion will be immediately broken as soon as you pick up and move around the device unless the ambient light sensor is polling at a high rate
consp 2y ago
Battery life is still affected with emissive displays.
tliltocatl 2y ago
It's not about chroma, its' about luma. You would need pretty powerful backlight to match ambient on a sunny day. It will burn battery pretty quickly and require unrealistic cooling.
kwhitefoot 2y ago
Because a sunny day at the equator is about a kilowatt per square metre. A typical mobile phone display is about 100 cm^2 (0.01 m^2), so you would need to emit 10 watts to match sunlight. As far as I can tell OLEDs are 20% efficient or less so you would need an input power of 50 W. Even at 60 deg. N where I live we get over 300 W/m^2 in August so would still need about 15 W of input power to the display.
- WithinReason 2y ago
  Just aim the light at the user's face and those power requirements reduce by 99% :)

mcbetz 2y ago

Any first-hand experiences with the Nxtpaper devices? There's a lot of press coverage of the release official material, especially on the 14 inch model, but few actual reviews. Availability or even infos on availability is an issue, at least in Europe as well.

djtango 2y ago
I just ordered the nxtpaper 11 arrives next week so will post back later. I was torn between the HannsNote2 and Nxtpaper 11 but the battery life for the HannsNote2 is apparently less than 3 hours which I think is not going to cut it for a device which is meant to take me away from my phone I ordered the nxtpaper from TechInn - I think they ship global
- djtango 2y ago
  For anyone that was interested my Nxtpaper 11 finally arrived. I am annoyed because I realised the Nxtpaper 11 is available on amazon.de the product listing was just buried because it hadn't bubbled up the search and its name isn't great for search. Have only used it a few hours so some initial thoughts: - this is my first ever real tablet but its heavier than I thought, its a bit awkward to read one handed especially without anything to grip, I might get one of those hand bands to get a lightweight grip - the tablet is noticeably slow, you can see some slight frame choppiness when scrolling in Substack for example, but obviously way better than an eink reader - the Nxtvision settings for reading mode and eye comfort mode are quite nice. Images and figures in documents look pleasingly "flat" - the resolution is noticeably low, I do notice the DPI is not that crisp when reading PDFs - I like the matte screen texture it is quite pleasing - reading code on it via Github was quite fun/pleasant All things considered for 250 Euros its probably worth a try if you're not too fussy. I can live with the shortcomings, this is a sufficiently niche space that it'll take a while for the perfect product to drop out. I'd love to get my hands on a Hannsnote 2 to compare
- afandian 2y ago
  I’m very close to getting a HannsNote 2. The battery life is disappointing, but it is very thin (maybe unnecessarily so). It’s no hardship to carry around a battery in a bag. I have a crazy idea about VNC or SSH in which case a host laptop might not be very far away anyway.

jillesvangurp 2y ago

It would be nice to see somebody do a device that isn't crippled in terms of hardware and software. In my experience, most hardware companies aren't very good at software and vice versa. Apple seems a rare exception to this rule. I'd love a laptop that I can use outside. Even my current macbook pro isn't that good outside. It kind of works but it's not that comfortable on the eyes. And that's supposed to be a screen that is suitable for this. My kindle on the other hand I can use sitting in the sun wearing sun glasses. Not a problem. Not that I do that a lot, I stick to the shadows. But we've had some nice warm temperatures here in the last few weeks and it sucks having to sit indoors to be able to do work. I'd much rather be in some nice garden or park. I'd probably buy anything with a decent amount of hardware power and a good screen like this. I'm OK installing linux on it. Not a problem. I can deal with external batteries and extension cords if needed. But I need my laptop to be fast and have decent keyboards and touch pads. But it seems all the companies in this space fall in the trap of trying to be Apple and then failing miserably on both the hardware and software front. Slow/outdated CPUs, crippled by anemic amounts of memory, paired with somebody's take on how to do Android, etc. When the screen is just about the only thing about a device that isn't shit, it's still a shit product overall.

fsflover 2y ago
> It would be nice to see somebody do a device that isn't crippled in terms of hardware and software. Have a look at PineNote.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  > Powered by a powerful and efficient RK3566 SoC with four A55 cores, and backed by 4GBs of RAM and 128GBs of eMMC storage Exactly what I mean by anemic. The only likable thing in that device is the screen.
  - user_7832 2y ago
    Likely not the reply you were looking for, but in theory a PineNote would be a great "donor" device for modification. For example - get your favorite SBC (Raspberry 5?), figure out how to connect it (likely eDP, documentation shouldn't be hard), make a new shell/body and you're done! ...If you have the technical know-how, time, space, tools and motivation of course. It's not that no one does such stuff (see r/cyberdeck), but yeah admittedly if you're not an engineer it likely isn't the easiest.

IWeldMelons 2y ago

the main bernefit of eink for me is that battery life is so much better.

okasaki 2y ago
That's not as relevant as it used to be though. My android tablet lasts for a week of reading and charges from 30% to 60% in 5 minutes.
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  At what weight though. Eink devices are super light.
  - okasaki 2y ago
    Not really. My Lenovo Y700 tablet is 375g, and my Kobo Aura One is 230g The Y700 has a bigger screen and is 100x better at everything though.
    - IWeldMelons 2y ago
      as if being 1.6 heavier does not matter? Or 1/3rd of price? I can hold kobo libra 2 with one hand, the battery lasts long, PPI is high, what to not like?
      - okasaki 2y ago
        The Y700 came with a rubber case which makes it significantly easier to hold than the plastic Kobo. The metal body and minimal bezels also look much more premium. It's also _extremely_ better at everything, including for reading books, so the higher weight and (2x, not 3x) cost are well worth it. The Kobo battery doesn't even last that long with the backlight and wifi on, and at least mine wipes its storage and OS when the battery runs down completely. The screen and UI are also the worst thing imaginable. Using eink devices is basically equivalent to torture.

londons_explore 2y ago

Readers might be interested in this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006647598296.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006647598296.html never used it, but am considering getting it to lay on top of my laptop screen for outdoor coding. One of the reviewers seems to suggest it is made out of the CPU etc from an old bitcoin miner which is no longer economic to run, but with an extra circuit board added, which is a neat way to get value out of old electronics!

squarefoot 2y ago
Uses a XC7Z010 SoC which also contains a FPGA. https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview Searching the board name "EBAZ4205" brings some interesting results. https://github.com/xjtuecho/EBAZ4205 https://github.com/xjtuecho/EBAZ4205 https://theokelo.co.ke/getting-starting-with-ebaz4205-zynq-7000/ https://theokelo.co.ke/getting-starting-with-ebaz4205-zynq-7... https://github.com/XyleMora/EBAZ4205 https://github.com/XyleMora/EBAZ4205 https://hackaday.io/project/187351-cheap-35-and-powerful-fpga-programming https://hackaday.io/project/187351-cheap-35-and-powerful-fpg... http://cholla.mmto.org/ebaz4205/ http://cholla.mmto.org/ebaz4205/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ebaz4205-(zynq-7000-based-development-board)/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ebaz4205-(zynq-7000-based... https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/kmk9f9/ebaz4205_recycle_a_cheap_cryptominer_part_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/kmk9f9/ebaz4205_recyc... ...etc. About €30 on Aliexpress, so it's cheap. Edit: corrected the €10 mistake.
- SSLy 2y ago
  now it's 110€ for me, did we splashdot-effect it?
  - squarefoot 2y ago
    Quite possible in many cases as some sellers monitor well known places for links and raise their prices as soon as there's interest, but it doesn't seem the case here as I still see the same prices. Have you clicked to the actual board? Asking because many prices aren't unrelated to the photo returned by a search and point to either a much cheaper product sold either bundled or alone (a programming cable for example) or a more pricey complete kit. This is what misled me to the €10 initial price because I saw the main board while if memory serves the actual product was a smaller accessory card. By the way, I still see it around €30 plus 3 to 10 shipping on Ebay from several sellers in China. not publishing links for the above reasons.

globular-toast 2y ago

E-ink is special because it has basically no downsides when compared to paper. This makes it perfect for reading regular black and white books and for the vast majority of readers it's all they need. As soon as you try to do more, there are tradeoffs, like with anything else. I've never found a screen to be anywhere near as good as paper for writing (unless it comes with a keyboard, but even then it's not as good for drawing pictures etc). So it's just another device that might work for you, but might not. I can't see it replacing eink unless it has literally no downsides (including cost).

carlosjobim 2y ago
It has some downsides compared to paper: 1. White paper is significantly whiter than white e-ink 2. Black ink is significantly darker than black e-ink 3. Large A4-size e-ink displays are expensive 4. Large e-ink displays are sensitive and can break, you have to handle with a lot of care But otherwise there are tremendous advantages over paper. And with a textured screen cover, writing on e-ink is just as comfortable as writing on paper.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  I should have been more specific. I think it has (virtually) no downsides compared to a standard paperback book. I very much enjoy high quality and larger scale printing that is certainly not achievable on any screen, including e-ink. Also, when it comes to textbooks and references, books are simply a better technology than screens, in my opinion. But, again, this isn't specific to e-ink. I haven't tried writing on e-ink. Is it better than the most expensive Apple tablets? Any time I've tried the lag is noticeable and I can't stand it.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Writing on recent e-ink tablets is like writing on paper. The lag is difficult to notice. I don't know how it compares to Apple tablets.
    - 2y ago

jszymborski 2y ago

I loved the reflective LCD screen on my pebble time. Glad folks are rediscovering it.

allanren 2y ago

I had a e-reader, it's just to slow to run anything except reading books. Not sure if the new color screen will improve the experience.

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mcdonje 2y ago

Front lighting isn't always ideal because it increases the distance between the screen and the user and makes it feel less paperlike, which is why Remarkable isn't front lit. It also uses power. Both types of displays don't need power for light, which is a huge advantage. The power advantage e-ink has is not needing power to retain an image. While that's a requirement for some use cases, they should both have very low power consumption compared to backlit lcd screens.

est 2y ago

eink display with 8 colors should be perfect for coding. Just good enough colors to highlight terminal or code editor. The refresh rate is fine for cursor based UIs.