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And it will never disappear from the agenda. Chat control is widely popular among some influential parts of the population. After the attempted terrorist attack

And it will never disappear from the agenda. Chat control is widely popular among some influential parts of the population. After the attempted terrorist attack in Vienna for the Taylor Swift concert the topic didn’t leave Austrian media. A lot of parents are in favor of this independently of terrorism because of fear of CSAM. There is an awful lot of lobbying going on and given history of EU regulation this can only end up passing in the worst possible way at one point.

zaik 2y ago
Popular among the population or popular among ÖVP politicians?
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  Popular across specific but impact parts of the population (parents).
  - I_am_tiberius 2y ago
    Are there Austrian surveys backing this?
    - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
      I doubt you would see it on surveys. However there is a lot of very noticeable lobbying about this. Our school has a parent group that organizes events to inform parents about the dangers of social media and online grooming. You will find leaflets, PDFs etc. If you are interacting with those circles you will find folks who made it their life’s mission to protect children and who are lobbying for this. You donut need a large number of people to sway legislation, you only need determined people.
      - I_am_tiberius 2y ago
        Ok, I'm Austrian and don't know of anyone who would support this. But I'm not a parent. I think this is a classic example where a referendum makes sense.
        the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
        A referendum might be beneficial because it has the chance to make a lasting decision. What is happening here is that the people that care keep fighting for it.
  - elric 2y ago
    I imagine this is popular in the same way Brexit was: only when the question is worded in a way that ignores all the possible negative outcomes. Something about having a cake and eating it...
caseyy 2y ago
On the other hand, there are EU countries like Lithuania, which have a very privacy-conscious culture, and have not had any meaningful terror attacks for nearly all their history. The last notable one was 30 years ago[0]. No one died. In Lithuania, privacy is quite meaningfully enshrined in its constitution[1]. I remember that Google StreetView faced significant regulatory challenges in simply photographing people’s homes, and today, many buildings are blurred out. This is only one example. But you can see that everyone takes privacy very seriously in the country. A lot of social engineering-type phishing for personal data does not work because people understand which boundaries cannot be crossed intuitively. More privacy does not mean more terrorism. There may be situations where reducing privacy does reduce terrorism, but privacy is not the cause. I wish governments would rather address the cause. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_in_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_i... [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/lithuania-privacy-taken-very-seriously-more-can-be-done-protect-vulnerable https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/lithuania-pr...
- baybal2 2y ago
  [dead]
- johngladtj 2y ago
  Lithuania? Just pitch it as a way to fight back against Russia, and it will pass in a jiffy just like all the other anti-russian laws they've been rolling through
  - caseyy 2y ago
    I know you are somewhat joking. But there is an undertone of truth in what you say. Oppressive state surveillance in the USSR (commonly verging on persecution of undesirable groups) was a strong reason for countries breaking away from it between 1990 and 1991, when the union collapsed. Lithuania was arguably the first one. The privacy protections we see today are a reaction to some extent, but Lithuanians enjoy them. It was not an over-reaction. It would be wise to use the examples of heavy-handed state surveillance in history in arguments for privacy laws. The US did this to argue for their economic model quite effectively. Whether that ultimately is good — I mean that some people have become so afraid of communism that they can’t agree on some fundamental social welfare systems and duty of care for each other as people — I don’t know. But contrasting liberal capitalism with planned-economy communism was effective in galvanising people towards the former. “Enemy of my enemy is my friend” and all that.
chii 2y ago
> terrorist ... CSAM it's always the terrorists and the children. It turns off the logical, rational thought centers in the brain, and convinces ordinarily rational people to accept these poorly thoughtout security measures. As a civid duty, you must fight against measures like these that erode security and privacy. It sucks, because the reward is "nothing", and you must forever maintain vigilence against constant reproposals.
- raverbashing 2y ago
  A lot of people prefer to violate the rights of their own electorate as opposed to putting people into planes and having effective overseas action against the financiers of it
- samatman 2y ago
  Let's not forget drug dealers and money launderers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  Even if that argument somehow statistically works/worked, sometimes it should be mentioned: I would rather have some 3 terror attacks more per year, than having privacy of millions invaded and our way of living destroyed, just to prevent those 3 cases. It would be letting the actual terrorists determin how we live, what rights and privacy we are allowed to have.
  - vorticalbox 2y ago
    Terrorists would just either add e2e over existing apps or just move to ones that support it. Criminals tend to not care about the law even making e2e illegal would do very little to stop anything.
  - tzs 2y ago
    > I would rather have some 3 terror attacks more per year, than having privacy of millions invaded and our way of living destroyed, just to prevent those 3 cases. End to end encrypted chat for the general public has only been available for ~15 years. On the web, SSL is ~30 years old. PGP is ~35 years old. As far as I can tell people's way of living now is largely the same as it was back before any of those were around, so I don't see how it would destroy our way of living if much of that went away.
ajsnigrutin 2y ago
> A lot of parents are in favor of this independently of terrorism because of fear of CSAM. A transparent CSAM checking process would be funny.. Imagine a 18, 19 yo., relatively skinny girl with small breasts (or a guy with a small dick) sending such a picture to her long-term boyfriend (...), and then getting messages from the system: - "hello, our AI thinks your boobs are underage, we sent the photo to police station in Cityville for a manual checkup" - "hello, the photo has been transferred to inspection team of Bobby Robertson, Johnny Walkerson and Jane Jameson to inspect" - "hello, by a careful inspection of your boobs, with a 2-to-1 vote, the team has decided that your boobs are most probably old enough to be photographed and sent around. The photo was sent to your desired destination and just in case, arhchived in the police arhives for possible further inspections".
- janice1999 2y ago
  That is already happening, including the AI and manual renew. One victim was a father sending a photo of his child to his doctor. "Google’s Scans of Private Photos Led to False Accusations of Child Abuse" (2022) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-photos-led-false-accusations-child-abuse https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-...
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  CSAM scanning is in effect on multiple messenger services for two years or so. Also in the US.

zaik 2y ago

Popular among the population or popular among ÖVP politicians?

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
Popular across specific but impact parts of the population (parents).
- I_am_tiberius 2y ago
  Are there Austrian surveys backing this?
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    I doubt you would see it on surveys. However there is a lot of very noticeable lobbying about this. Our school has a parent group that organizes events to inform parents about the dangers of social media and online grooming. You will find leaflets, PDFs etc. If you are interacting with those circles you will find folks who made it their life’s mission to protect children and who are lobbying for this. You donut need a large number of people to sway legislation, you only need determined people.
    - I_am_tiberius 2y ago
      Ok, I'm Austrian and don't know of anyone who would support this. But I'm not a parent. I think this is a classic example where a referendum makes sense.
      - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
        A referendum might be beneficial because it has the chance to make a lasting decision. What is happening here is that the people that care keep fighting for it.
- elric 2y ago
  I imagine this is popular in the same way Brexit was: only when the question is worded in a way that ignores all the possible negative outcomes. Something about having a cake and eating it...

caseyy 2y ago

On the other hand, there are EU countries like Lithuania, which have a very privacy-conscious culture, and have not had any meaningful terror attacks for nearly all their history. The last notable one was 30 years ago[0]. No one died. In Lithuania, privacy is quite meaningfully enshrined in its constitution[1]. I remember that Google StreetView faced significant regulatory challenges in simply photographing people’s homes, and today, many buildings are blurred out. This is only one example. But you can see that everyone takes privacy very seriously in the country. A lot of social engineering-type phishing for personal data does not work because people understand which boundaries cannot be crossed intuitively. More privacy does not mean more terrorism. There may be situations where reducing privacy does reduce terrorism, but privacy is not the cause. I wish governments would rather address the cause. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_in_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_i... [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/lithuania-privacy-taken-very-seriously-more-can-be-done-protect-vulnerable https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/lithuania-pr...

baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
johngladtj 2y ago
Lithuania? Just pitch it as a way to fight back against Russia, and it will pass in a jiffy just like all the other anti-russian laws they've been rolling through
- caseyy 2y ago
  I know you are somewhat joking. But there is an undertone of truth in what you say. Oppressive state surveillance in the USSR (commonly verging on persecution of undesirable groups) was a strong reason for countries breaking away from it between 1990 and 1991, when the union collapsed. Lithuania was arguably the first one. The privacy protections we see today are a reaction to some extent, but Lithuanians enjoy them. It was not an over-reaction. It would be wise to use the examples of heavy-handed state surveillance in history in arguments for privacy laws. The US did this to argue for their economic model quite effectively. Whether that ultimately is good — I mean that some people have become so afraid of communism that they can’t agree on some fundamental social welfare systems and duty of care for each other as people — I don’t know. But contrasting liberal capitalism with planned-economy communism was effective in galvanising people towards the former. “Enemy of my enemy is my friend” and all that.

chii 2y ago

> terrorist ... CSAM it's always the terrorists and the children. It turns off the logical, rational thought centers in the brain, and convinces ordinarily rational people to accept these poorly thoughtout security measures. As a civid duty, you must fight against measures like these that erode security and privacy. It sucks, because the reward is "nothing", and you must forever maintain vigilence against constant reproposals.

raverbashing 2y ago
A lot of people prefer to violate the rights of their own electorate as opposed to putting people into planes and having effective overseas action against the financiers of it
samatman 2y ago
Let's not forget drug dealers and money launderers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...
zelphirkalt 2y ago
Even if that argument somehow statistically works/worked, sometimes it should be mentioned: I would rather have some 3 terror attacks more per year, than having privacy of millions invaded and our way of living destroyed, just to prevent those 3 cases. It would be letting the actual terrorists determin how we live, what rights and privacy we are allowed to have.
- vorticalbox 2y ago
  Terrorists would just either add e2e over existing apps or just move to ones that support it. Criminals tend to not care about the law even making e2e illegal would do very little to stop anything.
- tzs 2y ago
  > I would rather have some 3 terror attacks more per year, than having privacy of millions invaded and our way of living destroyed, just to prevent those 3 cases. End to end encrypted chat for the general public has only been available for ~15 years. On the web, SSL is ~30 years old. PGP is ~35 years old. As far as I can tell people's way of living now is largely the same as it was back before any of those were around, so I don't see how it would destroy our way of living if much of that went away.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago

> A lot of parents are in favor of this independently of terrorism because of fear of CSAM. A transparent CSAM checking process would be funny.. Imagine a 18, 19 yo., relatively skinny girl with small breasts (or a guy with a small dick) sending such a picture to her long-term boyfriend (...), and then getting messages from the system: - "hello, our AI thinks your boobs are underage, we sent the photo to police station in Cityville for a manual checkup" - "hello, the photo has been transferred to inspection team of Bobby Robertson, Johnny Walkerson and Jane Jameson to inspect" - "hello, by a careful inspection of your boobs, with a 2-to-1 vote, the team has decided that your boobs are most probably old enough to be photographed and sent around. The photo was sent to your desired destination and just in case, arhchived in the police arhives for possible further inspections".

janice1999 2y ago
That is already happening, including the AI and manual renew. One victim was a father sending a photo of his child to his doctor. "Google’s Scans of Private Photos Led to False Accusations of Child Abuse" (2022) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-photos-led-false-accusations-child-abuse https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-...
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
CSAM scanning is in effect on multiple messenger services for two years or so. Also in the US.