3 ms·

What is wrong with the JVM? The JVM is utterly amazing and you know very well that you can target native, even with Clojure.

mgdev 2y ago
I agree that the JVM is an amazing piece of technology. But the ecosystem that exists around the JVM also comes with both a bunch of awesome libraries, and a whole bunch of cruft and ceremony. If, like Clojure, you're trying to pull in compatibility with JVM libraries, then you pull all that in. So now if you want a little C in your Clojure, you have to go through JNA or something. I would like the option of going native with a Clojure dialect, without passing through either JVM (Clojure) or JS (ClojureScript).
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Now there is Panama, and then GraalVM as well. Plus OpenJ9, PTC, Aicas, Azul, and even the Java like MicroEJ and ART. Many don't have an idea of breath and depth of Java ecosystem, and what guest languages can profit from.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    Not to mention that you can Compile JVM bytecode to Wasm https://github.com/cretz/asmble https://github.com/cretz/asmble or Run the JVM on Wasm https://cheerpj.com/docs/overview https://cheerpj.com/docs/overview Now is always the great time to be using JVM tech.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Yeah, for a reason I have always wandered around JVM, and its counterpart CLR, unless requested otherwise, since 2002.
- sswezey 2y ago
  Have you seen Jank? It’s a Clojure dialect being written in C++ and designed for interop with C++ instead of the JVM. https://jank-lang.org/ https://jank-lang.org/
  - mgdev 2y ago
    It's almost perfect. If it were strict C in stead of C++ I would probably be in love.
- sitkack 2y ago
  You should meet this nice https://github.com/babashka/babashka https://github.com/babashka/babashka ! It is Clojure written in Clojure compiled to native via GraalVM.
runevault 2y ago
Speaking as someone who was using Clojure pre-1.0 through... 1.2? because I was so interested in Lisps and one with access to a modern library ecosystem excited me, I did not enjoy my time with Maven at all. It felt very janky. A second issue that I hear they finally fixed was Clojure still gave all of the low level parts of the error that were basically the guts of Clojure and had nothing to do with my code which I got tired of dealing with. Probably other issues I'm forgetting as I have not used it in a decade or so, but I just did not enjoy my time dealing with the JVM ecosystem.

mgdev 2y ago

I agree that the JVM is an amazing piece of technology. But the ecosystem that exists around the JVM also comes with both a bunch of awesome libraries, and a whole bunch of cruft and ceremony. If, like Clojure, you're trying to pull in compatibility with JVM libraries, then you pull all that in. So now if you want a little C in your Clojure, you have to go through JNA or something. I would like the option of going native with a Clojure dialect, without passing through either JVM (Clojure) or JS (ClojureScript).

pjmlp 2y ago
Now there is Panama, and then GraalVM as well. Plus OpenJ9, PTC, Aicas, Azul, and even the Java like MicroEJ and ART. Many don't have an idea of breath and depth of Java ecosystem, and what guest languages can profit from.
- sitkack 2y ago
  Not to mention that you can Compile JVM bytecode to Wasm https://github.com/cretz/asmble https://github.com/cretz/asmble or Run the JVM on Wasm https://cheerpj.com/docs/overview https://cheerpj.com/docs/overview Now is always the great time to be using JVM tech.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Yeah, for a reason I have always wandered around JVM, and its counterpart CLR, unless requested otherwise, since 2002.
sswezey 2y ago
Have you seen Jank? It’s a Clojure dialect being written in C++ and designed for interop with C++ instead of the JVM. https://jank-lang.org/ https://jank-lang.org/
- mgdev 2y ago
  It's almost perfect. If it were strict C in stead of C++ I would probably be in love.
sitkack 2y ago
You should meet this nice https://github.com/babashka/babashka https://github.com/babashka/babashka ! It is Clojure written in Clojure compiled to native via GraalVM.

runevault 2y ago

Speaking as someone who was using Clojure pre-1.0 through... 1.2? because I was so interested in Lisps and one with access to a modern library ecosystem excited me, I did not enjoy my time with Maven at all. It felt very janky. A second issue that I hear they finally fixed was Clojure still gave all of the low level parts of the error that were basically the guts of Clojure and had nothing to do with my code which I got tired of dealing with. Probably other issues I'm forgetting as I have not used it in a decade or so, but I just did not enjoy my time dealing with the JVM ecosystem.