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Apparently, Signal is already used heavily by the US military, and Telegram by the Russian & Ukrainian military. As we create, so we destroy for tactical reaso

by mapt 2y ago

Apparently, Signal is already used heavily by the US military, and Telegram by the Russian & Ukrainian military. As we create, so we destroy for tactical reasons. Telegram's founder was just arrested for "failure to moderate". PGP was regarded as "munitions export". Tor is apparently wide open to the NSA through traffic analysis. Even as a small portion of our government wants freedom of communication, most of it is strongly opposed.

ants_everywhere 2y ago
Telegram can't moderate the encrypted content. Most of Telegram is not encrypted. A more apt comparison might be Facebook groups.
coliveira 2y ago
The goal of US gov is not to create, it is to control.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  The US government is not one thing. It is diverse agencies, often working together, but sometimes in opposition. It is not guaranteed that all agencies have the same goal of control.
lawlessone 2y ago
Telegram dude was already allegedly cooperating and moderating for the Russian government. If true he loses any argument that suggests he was defending privacy or free speech.
- mapt 2y ago
  Are you at all familiar with "Telegram Dude"? A fugitive of the Russian Government, an expat whose Facebook-like social network VKontakte was seized by the Russian Government, before he fled Russia and started an encrypted messaging app in response? I'm no expert on his current activities, but this isn't a situation without Known Context.
  - upon_drumhead 2y ago
    there are news articles (I admit, of questionable origin) the claim he visited Russia yearly for the past decade. I do wonder if it the situation is a little more complex then he was a fugitive of the Russian Government
    - jjulius 2y ago
      Further, there have been constant references, in articles from very reliable, reputable sources (see: CNN, NYT, FOX, etc.) since Russia's invasion into Ukraine about Russia's use of Telegram. I don't know that I could count the number of times I've seen phrases akin to, "based on conversations between Russian military commanders on Telegram," used as a source. The issue is that Russia's military essentially sucked at setting up their own communications channels, so they fell back to Telegram. Even Politico and the WSJ can confirm... https://www.politico.eu/article/telegram-ceo-arrest-pavel-durov-russian-military-communications-france/ https://www.politico.eu/article/telegram-ceo-arrest-pavel-du... https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-military-telegram-founder-arrest-b080dd8d https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-military-telegram-fo...
      - eitland 2y ago
        Thing is, Ukraine also use Telegram a lot. It is forbidden for military to military communication, but openly used a lot for information from authorities to the public. A reason why russia use it is because they don't have anything better. Ukraine on the other hand had fairly advanced systems well before recent Western military aid started arriving.
  - Thorrez 2y ago
    >encrypted messaging app An app that's not e2e encrypted by default, doesn't support e2e encrypted group chats, and is annoying to enable e2e encrypted messaging in. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram-is-not-really-an-encrypted-messaging-app/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram...
kfreds 2y ago
> Tor is apparently wide open to the NSA through traffic analysis. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean by that? To start with, are you saying that Tor is wide open to traffic analysis (1) by anyone, (2) by powerful attackers such as the NSA, or (3) by the NSA specifically?
- roywiggins 2y ago
  The allegation is usually that the NSA owns enough of the Tor network to deanonymize people using it.
  - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
    “owns” not necessarily in a financial sense, more that they have very comprehensive access to ip metadata the world over.
    - jjulius 2y ago
      Semantics.
    - avery17 2y ago
      They also run a ton of nodes. So yes they own part of the network financially.
  - thisconnect 2y ago
    Not just that, nsa can observe enough of the whole intrnet traffic and do deep packet inspection. Afaik tor does explicitly not protect against such an observer in their threat model.
    - ddtaylor 2y ago
      > do deep packet inspection There is no DPI on Tor networks. Traffic analysis for de-anonymization for Tor works by knowing all the variables in the system and solving it, not by looking at any content of the packets themselves. The last time something like that was possible at all in Tor it broke it entirely and destroyed the anonymization. The bug involved a vulnerability in the way Tor handled the traffic confirmation attack on Onion Services. This attack allowed malicious relays to embed uniquely identifiable information into Tor cells (the packets used in the Tor network).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
natpalmer1776 2y ago
I've heard (and perpetuated) hearsay about Tor being compromised, but I can't find where I heard that information originally. Could you point me to any notable incidents or events that has lead to this recurring sentiment?

by mapt 2y ago

ants_everywhere 2y ago

Telegram can't moderate the encrypted content. Most of Telegram is not encrypted. A more apt comparison might be Facebook groups.

coliveira 2y ago

The goal of US gov is not to create, it is to control.

OutOfHere 2y ago
The US government is not one thing. It is diverse agencies, often working together, but sometimes in opposition. It is not guaranteed that all agencies have the same goal of control.

lawlessone 2y ago

Telegram dude was already allegedly cooperating and moderating for the Russian government. If true he loses any argument that suggests he was defending privacy or free speech.

mapt 2y ago
Are you at all familiar with "Telegram Dude"? A fugitive of the Russian Government, an expat whose Facebook-like social network VKontakte was seized by the Russian Government, before he fled Russia and started an encrypted messaging app in response? I'm no expert on his current activities, but this isn't a situation without Known Context.
- upon_drumhead 2y ago
  there are news articles (I admit, of questionable origin) the claim he visited Russia yearly for the past decade. I do wonder if it the situation is a little more complex then he was a fugitive of the Russian Government
  - jjulius 2y ago
    Further, there have been constant references, in articles from very reliable, reputable sources (see: CNN, NYT, FOX, etc.) since Russia's invasion into Ukraine about Russia's use of Telegram. I don't know that I could count the number of times I've seen phrases akin to, "based on conversations between Russian military commanders on Telegram," used as a source. The issue is that Russia's military essentially sucked at setting up their own communications channels, so they fell back to Telegram. Even Politico and the WSJ can confirm... https://www.politico.eu/article/telegram-ceo-arrest-pavel-durov-russian-military-communications-france/ https://www.politico.eu/article/telegram-ceo-arrest-pavel-du... https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-military-telegram-founder-arrest-b080dd8d https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/russia-military-telegram-fo...
    - eitland 2y ago
      Thing is, Ukraine also use Telegram a lot. It is forbidden for military to military communication, but openly used a lot for information from authorities to the public. A reason why russia use it is because they don't have anything better. Ukraine on the other hand had fairly advanced systems well before recent Western military aid started arriving.
- Thorrez 2y ago
  >encrypted messaging app An app that's not e2e encrypted by default, doesn't support e2e encrypted group chats, and is annoying to enable e2e encrypted messaging in. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram-is-not-really-an-encrypted-messaging-app/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram...

kfreds 2y ago

> Tor is apparently wide open to the NSA through traffic analysis. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean by that? To start with, are you saying that Tor is wide open to traffic analysis (1) by anyone, (2) by powerful attackers such as the NSA, or (3) by the NSA specifically?

roywiggins 2y ago
The allegation is usually that the NSA owns enough of the Tor network to deanonymize people using it.
- dumbo-octopus 2y ago
  “owns” not necessarily in a financial sense, more that they have very comprehensive access to ip metadata the world over.
  - jjulius 2y ago
    Semantics.
  - avery17 2y ago
    They also run a ton of nodes. So yes they own part of the network financially.
- thisconnect 2y ago
  Not just that, nsa can observe enough of the whole intrnet traffic and do deep packet inspection. Afaik tor does explicitly not protect against such an observer in their threat model.
  - ddtaylor 2y ago
    > do deep packet inspection There is no DPI on Tor networks. Traffic analysis for de-anonymization for Tor works by knowing all the variables in the system and solving it, not by looking at any content of the packets themselves. The last time something like that was possible at all in Tor it broke it entirely and destroyed the anonymization. The bug involved a vulnerability in the way Tor handled the traffic confirmation attack on Onion Services. This attack allowed malicious relays to embed uniquely identifiable information into Tor cells (the packets used in the Tor network).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

natpalmer1776 2y ago

I've heard (and perpetuated) hearsay about Tor being compromised, but I can't find where I heard that information originally. Could you point me to any notable incidents or events that has lead to this recurring sentiment?