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Unrelated but that Wikipedia page seems to be a bit biased. What has capitalism specifically got to do with guard labor? Do communist and socialist societies no

Unrelated but that Wikipedia page seems to be a bit biased. What has capitalism specifically got to do with guard labor? Do communist and socialist societies not need guards, prisons and militaries?

razakel 2y ago
Because guarding something does not generate new capital.
Hikikomori 2y ago
Does police in USA have any duties other than protecting capital?
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  Giving out speeding tickets
  - Tade0 2y ago
    So raising capital then.
    - mcmcmc 2y ago
      Or reducing traffic deaths from dangerous driving with a financial deterrent Did you know that during GWOT, US military personnel deployed to combat zones were more likely to be killed in a car accident after returning home than they were to be actually killed in combat? Cops being abusive pigs doesn’t invalidate the logic behind the law, but then again it always has been the uneven enforcement that’s the problem
      - ElevenLathe 2y ago
        IMO traffic enforcement is convenient busywork to keep cops occupied until capital needs them for something specific. As a bonus, it generates lots of interactions with the public that they can choose to turn violent if they want to let off some steam, and so keeps a persistent note of terror playing.
        User23 2y ago
        Traffic deaths have surged with the post 2020 decrease in enforcement. Cars are dangerous and bad drivers kill people.
        ElevenLathe 2y ago
        Oh, definitely. That's why its a convenient thing to use surplus-at-the-moment cops for.
        fasa99 2y ago
        I figure it's both. There are 10 gorillion cops and municipalities. Some likely have policies and staff that get along well with the public and just try to administrate traffic in a safe and fair way. Some treat it as a cash cow and care more about the revenue stream than increase or decrease in harm. It's one of those things where both sides of the argument can be true in specific cases, making it perfect "internet debate" fodder.
        mindslight 2y ago
        How many tickets are given out for texting while driving versus being unluckily singled out while going a road's customary traveling speed?
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    I meant capital as US police has no duty to protect lives of citizens. https://www.qasimrashid.com/p/how-many-people-realize-police-have https://www.qasimrashid.com/p/how-many-people-realize-police...
    - someguydave 2y ago
      No, the police cannot be held liable for failing to protect you which is slightly different
      - theoreticalmal 2y ago
        “Nothing in the language of the due process clause itself requires the state to protect the life, liberty and property of its citizens against invasion by private actors.” From the article, quoting the Supreme Court. I’ll admit that the police may still have a “duty” (whatever that is defined as), but it is certainly true that they aren’t required to protect the public
- yimmothathird 2y ago
  [flagged]
Tade0 2y ago
The phrasing is odd indeed. In any case in communism majority of theft was committed by the workers themselves, so any guards would likely be in on it anyway. The real economic system and its currency at the same time was the massive web of connections and favours. How does one guard that? My grandfather, who was a surgeon, was reportedly particularly good at obtaining scarce goods like toilet paper - most likely as a token of gratitude for the procedures he performed.
- nradov 2y ago
  In the USSR, stealing from work was so normalized that it wasn't even called stealing. It was just "carrying out". Jobs in restaurants and meat packing plants were highly desirable not for the wages but for how much food you could steal.
  - zappb 2y ago
    That sounds like what prison life must be like. Get a job cooking for the staff and live the high life in club fed!
olddustytrail 2y ago
"Guard labor" is a specific economic term that applies to Capitalist economies. It's a subset of wage labor which means the wage is set by the market. Communist societies would be more likely to set wages by government.
elawler24 2y ago
Capitalism is a system that tries to enforce collaboration between anonymous people and entities, without central planning. But what happens when that doesn’t work? Is it the government or private industry that fills the gaps? Friedrich Hayek wrote on the topic of defending private property as a right to assert control [1]. To me, this feels particularly prevalent in high capitalist societies like the US, where the bond between people is not shared tradition, culture, and values - but rather personal freedom. [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/friedrich-hayek-dictatorship/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/friedrich-hayek-dictatorshi...
- from-nibly 2y ago
  In capitalism if there are gaps everyone just gives up and dies. /s

Unrelated but that Wikipedia page seems to be a bit biased. What has capitalism specifically got to do with guard labor? Do communist and socialist societies not need guards, prisons and militaries?

razakel 2y ago

Because guarding something does not generate new capital.

Hikikomori 2y ago

Does police in USA have any duties other than protecting capital?

mcmcmc 2y ago
Giving out speeding tickets
- Tade0 2y ago
  So raising capital then.
  - mcmcmc 2y ago
    Or reducing traffic deaths from dangerous driving with a financial deterrent Did you know that during GWOT, US military personnel deployed to combat zones were more likely to be killed in a car accident after returning home than they were to be actually killed in combat? Cops being abusive pigs doesn’t invalidate the logic behind the law, but then again it always has been the uneven enforcement that’s the problem
    - ElevenLathe 2y ago
      IMO traffic enforcement is convenient busywork to keep cops occupied until capital needs them for something specific. As a bonus, it generates lots of interactions with the public that they can choose to turn violent if they want to let off some steam, and so keeps a persistent note of terror playing.
      - User23 2y ago
        Traffic deaths have surged with the post 2020 decrease in enforcement. Cars are dangerous and bad drivers kill people.
        ElevenLathe 2y ago
        Oh, definitely. That's why its a convenient thing to use surplus-at-the-moment cops for.
        fasa99 2y ago
        I figure it's both. There are 10 gorillion cops and municipalities. Some likely have policies and staff that get along well with the public and just try to administrate traffic in a safe and fair way. Some treat it as a cash cow and care more about the revenue stream than increase or decrease in harm. It's one of those things where both sides of the argument can be true in specific cases, making it perfect "internet debate" fodder.
        mindslight 2y ago
        How many tickets are given out for texting while driving versus being unluckily singled out while going a road's customary traveling speed?
TacticalCoder 2y ago
[flagged]
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  I meant capital as US police has no duty to protect lives of citizens. https://www.qasimrashid.com/p/how-many-people-realize-police-have https://www.qasimrashid.com/p/how-many-people-realize-police...
  - someguydave 2y ago
    No, the police cannot be held liable for failing to protect you which is slightly different
    - theoreticalmal 2y ago
      “Nothing in the language of the due process clause itself requires the state to protect the life, liberty and property of its citizens against invasion by private actors.” From the article, quoting the Supreme Court. I’ll admit that the police may still have a “duty” (whatever that is defined as), but it is certainly true that they aren’t required to protect the public
yimmothathird 2y ago
[flagged]

Tade0 2y ago

The phrasing is odd indeed. In any case in communism majority of theft was committed by the workers themselves, so any guards would likely be in on it anyway. The real economic system and its currency at the same time was the massive web of connections and favours. How does one guard that? My grandfather, who was a surgeon, was reportedly particularly good at obtaining scarce goods like toilet paper - most likely as a token of gratitude for the procedures he performed.

nradov 2y ago
In the USSR, stealing from work was so normalized that it wasn't even called stealing. It was just "carrying out". Jobs in restaurants and meat packing plants were highly desirable not for the wages but for how much food you could steal.
- zappb 2y ago
  That sounds like what prison life must be like. Get a job cooking for the staff and live the high life in club fed!

olddustytrail 2y ago

"Guard labor" is a specific economic term that applies to Capitalist economies. It's a subset of wage labor which means the wage is set by the market. Communist societies would be more likely to set wages by government.

elawler24 2y ago

Capitalism is a system that tries to enforce collaboration between anonymous people and entities, without central planning. But what happens when that doesn’t work? Is it the government or private industry that fills the gaps? Friedrich Hayek wrote on the topic of defending private property as a right to assert control [1]. To me, this feels particularly prevalent in high capitalist societies like the US, where the bond between people is not shared tradition, culture, and values - but rather personal freedom. [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/friedrich-hayek-dictatorship/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/friedrich-hayek-dictatorshi...

from-nibly 2y ago
In capitalism if there are gaps everyone just gives up and dies. /s