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> I intend to buy undeveloped land far from civilization I'm always intrigued by this notion, I know plenty of Americans have this kind of plan, but it's never
by kingkongjaffa 2y ago
> I intend to buy undeveloped land far from civilization
I'm always intrigued by this notion, I know plenty of Americans have this kind of plan, but it's never quite as remote as they think, because, y'know you're still in America somewhere.
Unless you're thinking of somewhere in northern Canada.
I'd love to know where is considered 'far from civilization' on the continental US.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pjc50 2y agoFar from "civilization", but still surrounded by lawfulness so you don't have to deal with warlords taking your solar panels.
- flir 2y agoDon't hate the player, hate the game.
- ohthatsnotright 2y agoOr change the rules of the game: https://www.businesstechafrica.co.za/energy/2023/08/21/broken-solar-panels-specifically-manufactured-for-south-africa/ https://www.businesstechafrica.co.za/energy/2023/08/21/broke...
- HPsquared 2y agoBroken window theory, through the looking glass.
- ben_w 2y agoThe game being?
- njarboe 2y agoI would guess he will still be paying at least property taxes.
- DaoVeles 2y agoThere a few people I know who live off grid, they all say the same thing. The longer you are out there the closer to 100% you will be challenged for your stuff. Be it a semi-local crazy, warlord, gypsies or cult few have heard of - they all want resources that are closer than the alternative and they are aware that you are the only defense. Another factor of this living is that once the honeymoon period wears off, there is a dawning on many people that their tolerance for failure has dropped significantly. A break down of a vehicle can become a very big issue very fast when the nearest town is an hour away.
- caymanjim 2y agoThis is certainly a concern. I'm early 50s now and have no medical issues or physical limitations (ok, aside from fatness). I'm pretty handy. I can fix what needs fixing. My tolerance for problems and delays is high. But it won't be long before I start falling apart and will want to be closer to medical resources for myself and service providers for my stuff. I'm not looking for a forever home. I figure I might live in the middle of nowhere for a decade or so and then who knows. Maybe move closer to town and have a nice place to visit part of the year.
- DaoVeles 2y agoI know a couple that lived off grid and made it work for a long while. They only had to give it up in their early 80's after several decades on location. Not a bad way to be. The thing that did them in was failing health and they needed to be closer to medical centers.
- sandworm101 2y ago>> thinking of somewhere in northern Canada. Canada is vast and in some places very rugged. "Remote" and "northern" are not related terms. Just look at BC on google maps. Look at the bit of vancouver island that is south of the US border. That is some very remote terrain, but is no way northern. Then scan up into the BC coast. Just a few hundred miles from downtown Vancouver and not a single road to be found. Or start at Whistler and pan west. Hundred of miles of mountains with nothing more than the occasional logging road.
- conradev 2y agoAmerica can get extremely remote and so you can choose how remote you want to go. Here is a journalist from Manhattan meeting folks living off-grid in Colorado: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/28/what-going-off-the-grid-really-looks-like-cheap-land-colorado https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/28/what-going-off... Not to mention Slab City: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_City,_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_City,_California Infrastructure-wise, roads come before water or electricity, and so plenty of the United States has a road but no power or water. This can even be standard for those who are near civilization.
- nl 2y agoSlab City is 100 miles from San Diego and only 160 miles from Los Angeles! That's not remote - remote should be classified using a decreasing population density over distance function. Remote is somewhere like Nullarbor, which is 183 miles from Ceduna (population < 6000). It's over 1000km to Adelaide (population 1.3m) or 1600km to Perth (population 1.9m). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor,_South_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor,_South_Australia
- jacobolus 2y agoThat's not remote: there's a paved road that goes there! Remote should be somewhere that requires weeks of travel by sailboat or camel to get to.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nl 2y agoI might be wrong but there are few places that already have population and yet require a week of travel via camel to get to. My sister lived in Wingellina[1][2], Western Australia which was a 6 hour drive on unpaved, 4WD required track from Alice Springs. That's close to one of the most difficult, isolated places to get to in Australia, but even there isn't a week on Camels. Maybe going further west into the Great Sandy Desert might get close (although you get close to small townships in WA if you go too far). The Empty Quarter has low population density but is smaller than isolated areas in Australia. There are probably places in Siberia and Canada that are fairly isolated too. I agree that there are more isolated islands. The Pitcairn Islands is the most obvious case. [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/Q2wL9KCa9aXht3YS9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Q2wL9KCa9aXht3YS9 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingellina,_Western_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingellina,_Western_Australia
- caymanjim 2y ago> I'd love to know where is considered 'far from civilization' on the continental US. There are many interpretations and levels of remoteness. In my case, I want to be away from the sights and sounds and crowds of anything that would be considered urban or suburban. My prime criteria is that I don't want to see another person unless I choose to. I don't want to see a road with cars on it, I don't want to see another house or any other man-made structure that isn't mine. Ideally I don't want to hear anyone else either, but I accept that I may hear things in the distance. I don't want to be a complete hermit, and I'm not a survivalist looking to be 100% self-sufficient. I want a small-to-midsized town about 30-60 minutes away. Something with a grocery store, gas station, and a post office or other place to receive deliveries. I don't want to be more than an hour away from doctors' offices or a hospital or urgent care. I don't want to be trapped by snow for weeks at a time. Saying "far from civilization" was a stretch. What I really mean is I don't want to have people all around me. And I don't want to be anywhere near cities and suburban sprawl. I don't want neighbors in any meaningful sense. Places I'm considering are Maine, Montana, northern Wisconsin, Upper Peninsula Michigan. I would absolutely consider parts of Canada, particularly northern BC. I don't have an easy path to Canadian citizenship, though. Before my Canadian girlfriend passed away last year, we had been planning to look for a secluded lakeside cabin or undeveloped land in BC. My requirements are dense forest (desert/plains states are right out) and water (lake or canoeable river) on the property itself. I can live with other people using the water, so long as it's not motorboats and a party scene.
- thijson 2y agoThe further north you go, the larger the seasonal variation in sunlight. I've watched some video's of people living off grid in BC, they need a diesel generator for the winter months to get by.
- switchbak 2y agoThis is also quite dependent on the microclimate: there's a number of places in the south of BC that get radically different levels of solar radiation. Kelowna for instance would be far better than North Vancouver for a solar setup. By and large most of BC wasn't economic enough to justify solar as a replacement for grid power, but I haven't checked those numbers in a while. We do have relatively cheap hydro power, so there's not a hugely strong incentive either. There's other reasons that might justify an install however, especially for off-grid folks.
- bawolff 2y agoI think most people understand "far from civilization" to just mean rural. You can easily find that in america (or canada). Nobody is talking about moving to a failed state.
- grecy 2y agoExactly right. It's mathematically impossible to get more than 116 miles from a McDonalds in the lower 48 - and that's if you take a helicopter! https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mcfarthest-spot-skb https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mcfarthest-spot-skb
- _yb2s 2y agoBut there are many places where that would be two solid days of offroad driving, without seeing another person in the process.
- grecy 2y agoCan you give me an example?I have explored a lot of remote places and never found anything nearly that remote
- _yb2s 2y agoThe California Sierras, Death Valley, the Mojave desert, and of course Baja (obv not in the lower 48) have remote trails that can take days to get to- not so much because they’re actually extremely far away but because the trails are slow going and difficult. There are trails where average speeds in a vehicle are slower than walking, but you can’t really hike them either - at least without pack animals- because there are no water sources. Look at a map and see what is furthest from a highway, but technically accessible by some sort of old road or trail. Look at a mineral rights map and find the most remote gold rush era mining claims. You won’t see people often in these places because your standard 4x4 lacks the fuel range to get there- gasoline engines have very poor range at low speeds. You need something capable but also fuel efficient- usually something with a small diesel engine, which are not very available in the US market. More remote places also tend to have a lot of cumulative water damage to trails so are very technical- requiring a lot of patience (e.g. stacking rocks for hours) and a lot of driving skill.
- grecy 2y agoInterestingly, I’ve spent time in all the places you mention. Keep in mind more people live in Southern California than all of Australia. The places you mention are busy, and not really remote. I’d be willing to bet you can drive out of the most remote on your list to a gas station in well under 10 hours. Probably 5
- WillAdams 2y agoYeah, it's kind of sad how pervasive roads/trails are: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894 With more than 14,000 of them, it's not possible to be more than 115 or so miles from one: https://www.rd.com/article/farthest-away-from-mcdonalds/ https://www.rd.com/article/farthest-away-from-mcdonalds/
- refurb 2y agoWhy is that sad? These can be logging trails you’d need to squint to actually see in the brush. And 115 miles? That’s a huge distance.
- WillAdams 2y agoInvasive species for one thing --- folks aren't nearly as careful about checking their vehicles as they ought to be. Not huge enough when you're considering how the McDonald's have driven out little hole-in-the-wall places and that the presence of such a fast food restaurant requires a busy highway, or a reasonably dense population center.
- irrational 2y agoI once drove from Oregon to Death Valley on the east side of the Cascades/Sierras. We were driving at highway speeds for most of a day and saw almost nobody. Just nothing and nobody as far as the eye could see for hundreds and hundreds of miles. This isn’t even very unique. Vast swaths of the American west are just empty.
- narrator 2y agoThere's no water in the dryer parts of the Mojave unless you're near big rivers like the Colorado or the rivers that feed into Phoenix or get it piped in from somewhere. You can't easily live anywhere permanently without a good water source.
- kragen 2y agoyou just need to drill 60 meters down: https://ca.water.usgs.gov/mojave/mojave-morongo-hydrographs.html https://ca.water.usgs.gov/mojave/mojave-morongo-hydrographs.... once you're established you can collect rainwater. https://ca.water.usgs.gov/mojave/ https://ca.water.usgs.gov/mojave/ says: > Most areas of the basin floor receive 4 to 6 inches of precipitation per year, although annual precipitation can be greater than 40 inches in the southern and eastern San Bernardino and the San Gabriel Mountains (Lines, 1996). Recharge to the groundwater system from direct infiltration of precipitation is minimal. in modern units "4 inches" is 100 millimeters, so that's about 3 nanometers per second each person needs about 6 liters of water per day (burning man recommendation, including hygiene, dishwashing, etc., but not garden irrigation) or 70 microliters per second. 70 microliters divided by 3 nanometers is about 20 square meters, so even in the desert you don't need a large catchment to keep your cistern full. this isn't the atacama if you want to be far from civilization in america, though, the atacama is pretty good for that. parts of patagonia might be better and do have rain
- redandblack 2y agoI am moving from New Jersey to Delaware - for me that is far from civilization, but can make it up by a once a month trek for the food scene in NJ.
- refurb 2y agoEastern US is a bit harder, but Western? It’s just a handful of cities and towns in a wilderness. Go to Wyoming or Montana. You get a 2 or 3 hr drive outside major cities and you might be the only person around for 10+ miles.
- MrLeap 2y agoMy picks were devils elbow MO, or climax springs MO or tightwad MO
- jimt1234 2y agoAlaska
- caymanjim 2y agoTempting. Been there and loved it. Lots of cheap land. Not the best place for solar power and those winters are rough. And it's really far from family. I don't need to see family more than a few times a year, but if I lived in Alaska it'd likely be once a year.
- codersfocus 2y agohttps://www.lightpollutionmap.info/ https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/ Anywhere not colored
- djtango 2y agoAs someone who has only lived in major cities - what is the plan for food? Grow it yourself / hunt?
- caymanjim 2y agoAside from Alaska, there's nowhere in the entire US where you're more than an hour or so away from a grocery store.
- astronautameya 2y agoEveryone with this fantasy reserves the right to uniquely define 'remote' as they see fit. For someone it could be defined as minimal human interaction, for others it could be a function of distance from the nearest urban/ suburban center. For most, it would be some combination of these two. I've backpacked to some very remote places around the world, but it's hard to beat the USA (western half), Canada, Russia (east of Moscow) and Australia (anywhere not on the coast).
- briffle 2y agoCrane, OR is I think the only public high school that boards its students in dorms during the week. Its geographic area is 7700sq miles. (The size of Massachusetts) It has 50-60 students. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Union_High_School https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_Union_High_School
- JackMorgan 2y agoIf I remember correctly my students in Glenallen AK used to be bussed from up to 2.5 hours each way! I always have thought that was so silly to still have daily classes. Why not just once a week and the whole day is filled with socializing. Humans get an idea in their heads like "how school should be" and just can't let it go...
- forgetfreeman 2y agoThere are places in wyoming where the only proof available that you aren't on another planet is the road you're driving on, where if you run out of gas it is a distinct possibility that you die of dehydration before anyone comes along to render aid.
- raffraffraff 2y agoI think that "an hour to the nearest convenience" is far from civilization, but I'm Irish and this is a tiny country. Also, you could argue that, by definition, having a road and an RV kitted out with food, water and batteries is civilization. Even if I lived full time like that I'd feel like I owe some civilization somewhere, a tax. Who built this nice road? What hidden or socialised costs or subsidies went into kitting me out for remote life? When all is said and done, we can't survive without having some sort of connection to other groups. Going a few hundred miles away for a while and saying "I AM SELF SUFFICIENT!" is a bit silly. And like I say, if you want peace and quiet you don't have to put your life at risk by going out of range of water, power, roads, phone coverage etc. Ignore me, I'm sure I just don't get it.
- lnsru 2y agoI lived in an old house in a place which got developed into suburbs later for a while. Preparing hot water by burning wood, what one must prepare in advance was an adventure. Luckily there was a pile of wood from before. But doing this repeatedly isn’t for everybody. The place lost afterwards electricity in spring for whole 2 weeks. So no backup. Heating only by burning wood. There are so many fail safes to be implemented to live outside civilization that I don’t want to think about it. A gas and electricity powered fridge. Enough gas, enough firewood. Boiling all water from the well before using it. Digging regularly a new hole for a toilet. Having at least one spare for every critical piece of equipment. Electronic loves to fail suddenly and Amazon does not come with next day delivery.
- mdemare 2y agoVery funny to read this from the Netherlands, where remote is defined as "I can't hear any cars".
- Auracle 2y agoI feel like people overshoot. I live on 15 acres, mostly woods. I can only just barely see my neighbor’s houses through the woods in the winter. I’d like more land still - I grew up on 60 acres - but I still basically have complete privacy.
- beacon294 2y agoI think a lot of people are happy with 5 acres, you think people buy 50 and it's too much? Anyways, the frontage on 50 acres is often quite slim.
- caymanjim 2y agoWhen I was looking in NJ, 5-10 acres was the typical lot size. That was enough to not see neighbors, but I was still too close to other people. There was always noise in the distance. There was a serious threat of adjacent lots being turned into apartments or other housing developments, or warehouses, or some kind of industrial facility like a quarry. Any of that would be enough to make me want to move. I can get 200+ acres in Maine for the same price as 5 acres in NJ, and have much higher confidence that nothing is going to be built adjacent to me. Especially if I get land abutting conservation land.