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If labor costs keep going up, it seems like the right path for the industry is to simplify installation more so it becomes more DIY. More plug-and-play. Less sk

If labor costs keep going up, it seems like the right path for the industry is to simplify installation more so it becomes more DIY. More plug-and-play. Less skilled carpenters and electricians.

xnx 2y ago
There are plug-and-play kits for installation on balconies that are popular in Germany: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/29/business/germany-solar-panels-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/29/business/germany-solar-pa...
- RobinL 2y ago
  Does anyone know of examples of something like this that can be bought in the UK?
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Just look on Amazon. Plenty of options for people with garden sheds, boats, etc. Plugging that into a wall socket might be something that you want to verify is allowed under your insurance or local legislation. I know some people here Germany that have picked up some panels at their local Aldi and are using them. Yields are pretty anemic but they aren't that expensive either. Kind of cool that Germany is encouraging this.
- euroderf 2y ago
  Not allowed in Finland, at least not in the KSOY service area. Lamous.
andrewmcwatters 2y ago
Labor costs for installing solar are already so ridiculous that you're better off doing the parting, delivery, and some installation if not all of it yourself and then having a licensed electrician just finish the connection to your main circuit breaker.
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  I regularly bring this up: modern fridges are generally continuous drive (which means they run off DC at some level anyway). And they run all the time(ish). Waiting for a (mass-)manufacturer to build one with a 48VDC input that anyone can self-install a solar panel and plug-in but switches to a mains-fed 48VDC source as required. Doesn’t need a battery (the fridge/freezer is one!), gets you some operation during outages, no license required to wire up. Takes advantage of whatever solar is available during the daytime without really wasting any. Would also love a non-permanently installed doohickey that doesn’t require an electrician to legally install that will gladly push solar into a power strip and handle all the intertie stuff itself. It shouldn’t be a “whole house or nothing” and a “completely islanded circuit or nothing” dilemma when wanting to partly solarize something. Which I guess Germany has allowed but regulations a big impediment in most places.
  - happyopossum 2y ago
    > modern fridges <snip> run all the time(ish). Genuinely curious - when did this become a thing? I have a couple of relatively recent fridges (less than 10 yrs old, and same model still sold today) that constantly cycle on/off, and spend more time off than they do on. I'd imagine a variable speed system (like are available in inverter-based heat pumps today) could be designed to run nearly constantly, but the variability of things like room temp, fridge loading (empty fridges are less efficient than full ones), open/closing doors, and the addition of warm/hot things in the fridge would make it so there's always a need for cycling at some level...
    - Scoundreller 2y ago
      From what I’ve seen, they’re usually marketed as “inverter fridges”. And yeah, at least the fan turns off when you open the door, and I’d imagine if you put a bunch of ice into the fridge, it wouldn’t need to run at all for a while. Meanwhile my local electric code (Ontario Canada) still requires a dedicated circuit for the fridge, which will now basically hum along at 1-2amps and never brownout/trip a circuit. What a waste.
beembeem 2y ago
First off, I know this article is more targeted at utility-scale installations, but much of the comment section is discussing or interested in residential so it's worth bringing this piece up. One of the problems for residential roof-mounted systems is the wind load that large flat panels introduce. This load needs to be offset with very strong roof penetrations. You need to drive large bolts directly into the trusses of the roof which requires a bit of expertise, and has risks if you knick the edge of a piece of structural timber. Contrast this with the round tubes used by solar thermal that don't introduce large wind loads, and nearly any DIYer can drill holes in their roof to support them.
- tfourb 2y ago
  This is news to my solar installation, which is not fixed to my roof structure at all. My roof is not that steep, so the panels are simply put of frames which are weighed down with concrete pavers. And this is not DIY job, but professionally installed with warranty and everything. Similarly, most solar installations on steeper roofs here in Germany are either made without penetrations at all (by hooking special frames into the roof structure under the roof tiles), or they use very basic screws that tie into the existing roof structure. Our neighbor did his solar installation himself on a pretty steep roof, something you would absolutely not do if there were any risk of structural damage.

If labor costs keep going up, it seems like the right path for the industry is to simplify installation more so it becomes more DIY. More plug-and-play. Less skilled carpenters and electricians.

xnx 2y ago

There are plug-and-play kits for installation on balconies that are popular in Germany: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/29/business/germany-solar-panels-climate-change.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/29/business/germany-solar-pa...

RobinL 2y ago
Does anyone know of examples of something like this that can be bought in the UK?
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Just look on Amazon. Plenty of options for people with garden sheds, boats, etc. Plugging that into a wall socket might be something that you want to verify is allowed under your insurance or local legislation. I know some people here Germany that have picked up some panels at their local Aldi and are using them. Yields are pretty anemic but they aren't that expensive either. Kind of cool that Germany is encouraging this.
euroderf 2y ago
Not allowed in Finland, at least not in the KSOY service area. Lamous.

andrewmcwatters 2y ago

Labor costs for installing solar are already so ridiculous that you're better off doing the parting, delivery, and some installation if not all of it yourself and then having a licensed electrician just finish the connection to your main circuit breaker.

Scoundreller 2y ago
I regularly bring this up: modern fridges are generally continuous drive (which means they run off DC at some level anyway). And they run all the time(ish). Waiting for a (mass-)manufacturer to build one with a 48VDC input that anyone can self-install a solar panel and plug-in but switches to a mains-fed 48VDC source as required. Doesn’t need a battery (the fridge/freezer is one!), gets you some operation during outages, no license required to wire up. Takes advantage of whatever solar is available during the daytime without really wasting any. Would also love a non-permanently installed doohickey that doesn’t require an electrician to legally install that will gladly push solar into a power strip and handle all the intertie stuff itself. It shouldn’t be a “whole house or nothing” and a “completely islanded circuit or nothing” dilemma when wanting to partly solarize something. Which I guess Germany has allowed but regulations a big impediment in most places.
- happyopossum 2y ago
  > modern fridges <snip> run all the time(ish). Genuinely curious - when did this become a thing? I have a couple of relatively recent fridges (less than 10 yrs old, and same model still sold today) that constantly cycle on/off, and spend more time off than they do on. I'd imagine a variable speed system (like are available in inverter-based heat pumps today) could be designed to run nearly constantly, but the variability of things like room temp, fridge loading (empty fridges are less efficient than full ones), open/closing doors, and the addition of warm/hot things in the fridge would make it so there's always a need for cycling at some level...
  - Scoundreller 2y ago
    From what I’ve seen, they’re usually marketed as “inverter fridges”. And yeah, at least the fan turns off when you open the door, and I’d imagine if you put a bunch of ice into the fridge, it wouldn’t need to run at all for a while. Meanwhile my local electric code (Ontario Canada) still requires a dedicated circuit for the fridge, which will now basically hum along at 1-2amps and never brownout/trip a circuit. What a waste.

beembeem 2y ago

First off, I know this article is more targeted at utility-scale installations, but much of the comment section is discussing or interested in residential so it's worth bringing this piece up. One of the problems for residential roof-mounted systems is the wind load that large flat panels introduce. This load needs to be offset with very strong roof penetrations. You need to drive large bolts directly into the trusses of the roof which requires a bit of expertise, and has risks if you knick the edge of a piece of structural timber. Contrast this with the round tubes used by solar thermal that don't introduce large wind loads, and nearly any DIYer can drill holes in their roof to support them.

tfourb 2y ago
This is news to my solar installation, which is not fixed to my roof structure at all. My roof is not that steep, so the panels are simply put of frames which are weighed down with concrete pavers. And this is not DIY job, but professionally installed with warranty and everything. Similarly, most solar installations on steeper roofs here in Germany are either made without penetrations at all (by hooking special frames into the roof structure under the roof tiles), or they use very basic screws that tie into the existing roof structure. Our neighbor did his solar installation himself on a pretty steep roof, something you would absolutely not do if there were any risk of structural damage.