4 ms·

Speaking of risks and fire, is there a known limit to the temperature achievable by concentration? I was wondering if I could melt a piece of tungsten with this

Speaking of risks and fire, is there a known limit to the temperature achievable by concentration? I was wondering if I could melt a piece of tungsten with this method.

remipch 2y ago
I think it depends on the mirror area. The more mirrors, the more power. The more power, the higher the temperature will be. Anyway, tungsten melts at 3422°C, I don't know if it's feasible.
- foobarian 2y ago
  Imagine we built a giant concentrator in space so we can melt tungsten without having to worry about containment!
hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago
Yes, and it is super-interesting! The fundamental limit is given by the 2nd law of thermodynamics - you can never reach higher temperatures than the surface of the sun, or around 5800 K. We have the atmosphere that absorbs and scatters some of the light, so on the surface of the earth it is a bit lower, but not by a huge amount. This means that there is a fundamental limit to how small and intense you can make the focal spot in a solar concentrator. The limit is around ~45 MW/m² or 45000 "suns" (which is plenty high, but far from infinite). Concentrators used for eletricity generation use much lower concentration than this, on the order of 25 suns to 1000 suns depending on the type. There are also solar furnaces designed for reaching much higher concentration by using a different type of optics. The most impressive one is the huge Odeillo solar furnace [1]. I would guess that they could melt tungsten, but I have not actually run the numbers. I did a talk last week about a concept we are developing for reaching furnace-level concentration ratios with conventional heliostats [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odeillo_solar_furnace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odeillo_solar_furnace [2] https://folk.ntnu.no/haakonjj/talks/2024-08-19-nonimaging-freeform-secondary.pdf https://folk.ntnu.no/haakonjj/talks/2024-08-19-nonimaging-fr...
- foobarian 2y ago
  The thing that I can't wrap my head around is that if the concentrator "pumps" power into an object, and say you can somehow insulate it to stop the losses, how is this limit not unbounded? Where does the energy go once we reach the cap? Does the black body radiation send the energy back out?
  - hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago
    > Does the black body radiation send the energy back out? Exactly, this is the issue. If an object is able to absorb sunlight, it is also able to emit blackbody radition back towards the sun. When the temperature limit is reached, these two exactly cancel each other. The object will emit blackbody radiation with the same brightness as the surface of the sun. Another way to look at it is to imagine yourself standing at the center of the concentrated sunlight and looking out towards the concentrator. The concentrator makes the sun look "bigger" from your perspective, and this is what makes the sunlight concentrated. The limit to this effect is if the sun fills all directions in the whole hemisphere above you. Now it will be as if you are standing on the surface of the sun, and all you can see in any direction is sunlight. Normally, the solar disc fills 1/45000th of the hemisphere above you here on earth, thus the limit of 45000 suns concentration.
    - foobarian 2y ago
      That's a very insightful way to look at it, thank you! ps. It's like making a VPN tunnel to the surface of the sun :-)
      - hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago
        > ps. It's like making a VPN tunnel to the surface of the sun :-) Wow, I love that! Great analogy!
    - remipch 2y ago
      Nice explanation, thanks
dekhn 2y ago
Check out: https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/
adrianN 2y ago
Platinum was first melted using concentrated solar iirc.

Speaking of risks and fire, is there a known limit to the temperature achievable by concentration? I was wondering if I could melt a piece of tungsten with this method.

remipch 2y ago

I think it depends on the mirror area. The more mirrors, the more power. The more power, the higher the temperature will be. Anyway, tungsten melts at 3422°C, I don't know if it's feasible.

foobarian 2y ago
Imagine we built a giant concentrator in space so we can melt tungsten without having to worry about containment!

hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago

Yes, and it is super-interesting! The fundamental limit is given by the 2nd law of thermodynamics - you can never reach higher temperatures than the surface of the sun, or around 5800 K. We have the atmosphere that absorbs and scatters some of the light, so on the surface of the earth it is a bit lower, but not by a huge amount. This means that there is a fundamental limit to how small and intense you can make the focal spot in a solar concentrator. The limit is around ~45 MW/m² or 45000 "suns" (which is plenty high, but far from infinite). Concentrators used for eletricity generation use much lower concentration than this, on the order of 25 suns to 1000 suns depending on the type. There are also solar furnaces designed for reaching much higher concentration by using a different type of optics. The most impressive one is the huge Odeillo solar furnace [1]. I would guess that they could melt tungsten, but I have not actually run the numbers. I did a talk last week about a concept we are developing for reaching furnace-level concentration ratios with conventional heliostats [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odeillo_solar_furnace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odeillo_solar_furnace [2] https://folk.ntnu.no/haakonjj/talks/2024-08-19-nonimaging-freeform-secondary.pdf https://folk.ntnu.no/haakonjj/talks/2024-08-19-nonimaging-fr...

foobarian 2y ago
The thing that I can't wrap my head around is that if the concentrator "pumps" power into an object, and say you can somehow insulate it to stop the losses, how is this limit not unbounded? Where does the energy go once we reach the cap? Does the black body radiation send the energy back out?
- hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago
  > Does the black body radiation send the energy back out? Exactly, this is the issue. If an object is able to absorb sunlight, it is also able to emit blackbody radition back towards the sun. When the temperature limit is reached, these two exactly cancel each other. The object will emit blackbody radiation with the same brightness as the surface of the sun. Another way to look at it is to imagine yourself standing at the center of the concentrated sunlight and looking out towards the concentrator. The concentrator makes the sun look "bigger" from your perspective, and this is what makes the sunlight concentrated. The limit to this effect is if the sun fills all directions in the whole hemisphere above you. Now it will be as if you are standing on the surface of the sun, and all you can see in any direction is sunlight. Normally, the solar disc fills 1/45000th of the hemisphere above you here on earth, thus the limit of 45000 suns concentration.
  - foobarian 2y ago
    That's a very insightful way to look at it, thank you! ps. It's like making a VPN tunnel to the surface of the sun :-)
    - hakonjdjohnsen 2y ago
      > ps. It's like making a VPN tunnel to the surface of the sun :-) Wow, I love that! Great analogy!
  - remipch 2y ago
    Nice explanation, thanks

dekhn 2y ago

Check out: https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/

adrianN 2y ago

Platinum was first melted using concentrated solar iirc.