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French prosecutors say Telegram CEO freed from custody, will appear in court
- littlestymaar 2y agoThis is extremely interesting. At first people expected him to be jailed, because he obviously has means to leave France and never get caught again, but then analysts pointed out that he knew there was a warrant in France to get him and that he decided to land in France anyway, so they raised the question that maybe he came voluntarily in order to strike a deal with French authorities. The fact that he's now free from custody sounds like this analysis was likely the right one.
- morkalork 2y agoIf that's the case, staying in custody may have been the wiser choice.
- littlestymaar 2y agoHe's better protected by French secret services than in jail, especially if the threat is FSB…
- wkat4242 2y agoIf that were the case, why did they make such a fuss in the media about arresting him though? If they wanted to make a deal with him that wouldn't really be helpful. Personally I think the legal basis for his arrest is just so thin that bail was granted. After all he is not personally responsible. The buck stops with him, sure but he didn't personally partake in any of the alleged activity on telegram. Keeping a person in custody is a very heavy measure that a judge won't grant lightly.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoThe media would make a huge fuss no matter what.
- SiempreViernes 2y agoThe media made a lot of fuss about the arrest, not the French government. So far as I can tell the French didn't say much of anything, which is why there is so much confusion about what happened.
- helsinkiandrew 2y ago> The buck stops with him, sure but he didn't personally partake in any of the alleged activity on telegram. I thought he was arrested for not complying with search/trace/takedown warrants against people who were (possibly) doing illegal activity. If that is true he presumably would be responsible.
- diggan 2y ago> The buck stops with him, sure but he didn't personally partake in any of the alleged activity on telegram. He's not accused of personally partaking in anything, the arrest warrant is about Telegram as a platform not working on removing content that broke the law, even when notified about it.
- manofmanysmiles 2y agoWhat is he accused of? I can't find any sources that say any more than that, he was arrested, and that the warrant was issued by a team investigating larger issues.
- diggan 2y agoHere you have the accusations, directly from the prosecutors: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
- wkat4242 2y agoYes but that is the company Telegram, not him personally. Keeping a person in custody is a very heavy handed measure. And not very effective. Telegram can easily replace him as CEO with someone else after all.
- croes 2y agoThey don't need him in jail until the court case starts. He can't run away without looking guilty.
- deadlydose 2y ago> The fact that he's now free from custody sounds like this analysis was likely the right one. Or they released him because they're required to by law? Normally they need to release you after 24h, but in some cases of organized crime or terrorism, they can extend it to 72+h. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000032655481 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
- littlestymaar 2y agoPolice must release you but the judge charged of leading the case can chose to jail you in a “preventive” fashion (It's literally called «détention préventive») if your odds of hiding or leaving the country are considered too high.
- p4bl0 2y agoYou can generally avoid détention préventive if you are able to provide good garanties de re-présentation, i.e., if you can convince the judge that even if they release you, you will show up to court when asked to. These documents are generally proof of insertion in active life (having a stable job, family, etc.) that should prevent you from disappearing (e.g., in order not to lose your job). I don't know what those would be in this case. But then again, the justice system is never exactly the same for people in positions of power, as Durov is.
- bobthepanda 2y agoI mean this is also how American bail generally works. Durov doesn't have a lot of permanent residency-style connection to France, and also has a lot of money though, so has the motive and means to flee.
- throwaway48540 2y agoNot if there is a risk that you will run away. That jail time shortens a potential prison sentence.
- bleuchase 2y agoRegardless of what did or did not happen the whole thing smells to high heaven. This is analogous to when authorities take your device out of your sight. It must be considered compromised after that.
- red_trumpet 2y ago> he knew there was a warrant in France to get him Do you have a reference for this claim? I've read this here or there, but always without any evidence. Was the arrest warrant public before he decided to land in France?
- littlestymaar 2y agoI got this from the Twitter of Gerard Araud, former French ambassador in the US who usually posts informed tweets.
- option 2y ago[flagged]
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoYeah, how dare they enforce their laws! So bad for startups!
- FredPret 2y agoThem enforcing their laws is a good thing. But the laws they've chosen to have are definitely not good for business, and in my (mostly irrelevant) opinion not good for a free and open society either.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoWhen did free and open mean you must be able to host child porn? This is a perversion of free and open IMO.
- option 2y agoyou can have CSAM on your smartphone, why smartphone makers aren’t required to constantly monitor your phone for it? /s
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoThere's totally no difference between a personal computer (private property) and a globally accessible hosted service that's provided for other people to use.
- barbazoo 2y ago> crazy labor laws in France What crazy labor laws exactly?
- option 2y ago
- cm2012 2y agoThat's a flight risk if I ever heard of one.
- mananaysiempre 2y agoHe can’t be detained for more than 96 hours without a court ruling. The clock ran out, so he was brought to court. That’s it.
- belter 2y agoMeans they don't have much, otherwise would not have run the clock....
- CretinDesAlpes 2y ago> In addition to Russia and France, Durov is also a citizen of the United Arab Emirates and the Caribbean island nation of St. Kitts and Nevis. So four citizenships? It's getting hard not look at this as dodgy.
- odiroot 2y agoIt's a billionaire thing.
- docdeek 2y agoI’m a citizen of three countries. I don’t know that it is all that unusual to have multiple citizenships, particularly for the very rich (a group I am most deinfitely not a part of) who might access citizenship via investment in a country.
- throwaway48540 2y ago> access citizenship via investment in a country. I guess that's what they mean by "it's a billionaire thing"
- jazzyjackson 2y agoTo be clear anyone with a few million in savings can take on multiple citizenships as a hobby, maybe OP just considers it table stakes for billionaires, as in, why wouldn't you. St kitts and Nevis is only a quarter mil, tho I don't know what benefit that would confer unless you're coming from a country without visa free travel And for what it's worth, UAE citizenship is not for sale directly, you have to actually live there long term Nice table on this page: https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/citizenship-by-investment/ https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/citizenship-by-invest...
- which 2y agoResidency is pretty much for sale in the UAE. However it is virtually impossible to be naturalized in the UAE through the official route. Most of the country is foreign born and there are lots of benefits to being a citizen so this deliberate. It requires something like 30 years of uninterrupted residency. Most people who get it are basically granted citizenship by a king. That’s why when you look at the list of Emiratis on Wikipedia the ones who aren’t Arab are almost entirely elite athletes and businessmen with political connections. It’s interesting that France and the UAE granted him citizenship and hacked his phone together.
- kklisura 2y agoI wonder if we'll see him pull something like this [1]: An ex-CEO of Nissan fleeing Japan in a box! [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993
- croes 2y agoIf he flees Telegram is done.
- jonathanstrange 2y agoHow so? Because they could prohibit Telegram in France?
- croes 2y agoThey could seize the company
- jonathanstrange 2y agoFrance cannot seize a company in the United Arab Emirates.
- tail_exchange 2y agoI doubt it. They can try banning Telegram just like Russia did, but it clearly didn't work for the latter.
- ivan_gammel 2y agoThey can disrupt Telegram operations by financial sanctions, which is more efficient. Russia technically could do it too - Russian audience is not small, but they probably benefit from it a lot.
- mdhb 2y agoI heard an interview with the guy who actually smuggled him out a while ago, he was an ex special forces soldier who ended up getting caught hand did a bunch of time for it. It’s a pretty crazy story. He certainly wasn’t the same person after that experience.
- aksfdH 2y agoFolks, he is free from the initial custody, but was brought to court today, which will decide on further steps. The AP article is rambling and disappointing, literally the DailyMail has a more coherent coverage: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13788495/telegram-founder-pavel-durov-freed-custody-france.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13788495/telegram-f...
- mariusor 2y agoI think accusing 4 paragraphs of factual text as rambling is a bit of a stretch.
- nikolamus 2y agoKeep scrolling
- petesergeant 2y agoIf I'm understanding the article, the headline for it is terrible, because he is still absolutely detained, just the type of detention has changed from "police custody" to "enforced court appearance", which may well put him in a different type of legal detention ... so in no way is he "freed". Also: > The Kremlin said ... 'very serious' and warned ... Do any NATO members take Kremlin warnings seriously any more? It seems clear that the Russians will already do anything they think they can get away with (cf Skripal)
- qingcharles 2y agoThis should be top comment. This is like in the USA where police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate. Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified. Durov is a high flight risk (money, private jet, foreign citizenship), so the judge will have to factor that in. IF there is an indictment.
- mistrial9 2y agosome American media is reporting that his personal cell phone was hacked for a long time before this arrest. One implication is that he is personally "dirty" in some real way -- so the story essentially supports the arrest and charges. Since this is high public profile by definition, expect lots more questionable spin to come.. IMHO
- vaylian 2y ago> some American media is reporting Can you please provide a source?
- riehwvfbk 2y agohttps://www.wsj.com/world/who-is-pavel-durov-telegram-founder-9b43eb5a https://www.wsj.com/world/who-is-pavel-durov-telegram-founde... His phone was hacked back in 2017. Afterwards the French government gave him an offer to collaborate (which was presumably declined).
- mistrial9 2y agoAnisha Pandey writes for CoinSpeaker today, quoting a Wall Street Journal profile article "Who is Pavel Durov"
- jonathanstrange 2y agoThe most ironic part of this news is that "Macron posted on X."
- Eumenes 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bambax 2y agoHe's not yet freed from custody AFAIK, but my interpretation of the word "custody" in English may be lacking. The initial police examination/interrogation has ended ("garde à vue"), and he's now been brought before a judge who will decide if he should be freed or kept in an actual jail (which a police station isn't). Until the judge makes that decision he's still very much detained by the police (albeit not interrogated).
- qingcharles 2y agoOK, you're right. I looked it. In the USA police can generally hold someone for 24-48hours before actual charges are filed (it takes a minute to generate an indictment), allowing them to investigate and interrogate. Then, if an indictment is filed a judge makes a decision on pre-trial confinement until trial. In France there is a general four month limit on pre-trial confinement before it has to be heavily justified.
- ebalit 2y agoI'm not a lawyer but from what I understand the process is closer to what you mention for the US. We have "garde à vue" and "détention provisoire": - "Garde a vue" is similar to being in police custody and it's limited to 24-48 hours normally, but there is longer duration for specific crime, the maximum being 6 days for terrorism investigations [0]. - Then, a judge can decide that the defendant should stay in "détention provisoire" before a trial. It doesn't have a duration limit but should be motivated and can be re-examined multiple time [1]. 0: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%A0_vue_en_droit_fran%C3%A7ais https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_%C3%A0_vue_en_droit_fran... 1: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9tention_provisoire_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9tention_provisoire_en_F...
- martythemaniak 2y agoSome credit reports that Durov travelled to Russia more than 60 times between 2014 and 2021. https://x.com/YaroslavAzhnyuk/status/1828498176854385111 https://x.com/YaroslavAzhnyuk/status/1828498176854385111 Honest question for this group: Does anyone actually believe Telegram has any sort of privacy? Like, I assume all your TG data is available to the Kremlin in the same way that all your TikTok data is available to the CCP.
- TremendousJudge 2y agoI assume that the kremlin has more knowledge of the drug trade in my city than the local police
- Zanfa 2y agoI can’t comment on any specifics of his arrest, but it sure indicates they got the right person if Russian and Saudi governments start talking about freedoms and injustice.
- glandan 2y agoThat is not certain. Russia has to say something and is exploiting the situation for propaganda. If it turns out that he was actually cooperating with the CIA, they'd happily give him the polonium treatment and claim France did it.
- tokai 2y agoThis. They utilize the firehose of falsehood method of communication. Talking points on every possible thing in all directions.
- fngjdflmdflg 2y agoIIRC he was basically kicked out of Russia for not censoring VK. Things could have changed but I don't think visits to Russia (where he has friends and family) is necessarily proof that he is giving data to Russia. Also, Telegram seems to have been banned in Russia at times, although I do not know the specific details.
- wonderwonder 2y agoHave to assume they are about to arrest the CEO's of all of the largest internet providers in France for the same reasons. If not then this is absolutely a political decision and France has decided to punish anyone daring to allow people to speak without government supervision.
- paxys 2y agoWhat makes you think CEOs of all the largest internet providers in France don't already cooperate with authorities?
- wonderwonder 2y agoI'm sure they do, but that does not change the fact that all of the things Durov is accused of doing are only possible on the infrastructure provided by those same internet companies. So yes, you are right they likely do cooperate already and this is a purely political prosecution flying in the face of Macron's statement.
- theesadi 2y ago[dead]
- muglug 2y agoThere's no evidence it's purely political. In France the citizens want tech companies to cooperate with authorities to prevent the spread of CSAM. Durov is a French citizen. His tech company does not cooperate with authorities. The authorities wanted to have a chat with him about that. Most discussions in Telegram are not end-to-end encrypted, meaning Telegram could probably do much more to stop the spread of CSAM. It's not just about CSAM — they mention terrorism, and the French authorities also probably also want to know what sort of deal he made with Russia to allow him to travel freely to and from that country after they attempted to ban Telegram.
- orwin 2y ago
- sva_ 2y agoPeople make these equivalences to other social media platforms, but alas it is the only social media I use where I frequently see stuff like IS recruitment videos in larger groups. That is, professionally produced videos in my local language. It's always the same videos as well, so you'd think they at least ban known bad files by hash or something, but nope, they get removed manually by the group's mods hours later.
- fngjdflmdflg 2y agoWow, I've never heard anything like that before (never used TG). Do you mind sharing what language that is? (or language family, ie. Germanic, Semitic, Sinitic etc.) Also, IIRC, the Taliban has used WhatsApp in official capacities.[0] Obviously IS and Taliban are not nearly the same, just thought it was worth mentioning. WhatsApp does not have the same public groups as TG so I guess you would have to already be in an IS adjacent WhatsApp group to get videos from them. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/17/world/asia/taliban-whatsapp-afghanistan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/17/world/asia/taliban-whatsa...
- sva_ 2y agoGerman The one I had in mind is a city-wide chat group with more than 2000 members in which people share stuff they want to give away or sell for cheap.
- yieldcrv 2y agoTelegram is the best way to get on the ground news or content, and what people in the area think, only filtered by that chat’s moderators which is basically limited to interpersonal problems Israel and IDF content is over there Palestinian and Hamas content is over there Ukrainian Russian All in separate feeds that you can just switch between Its been very useful for me as there is so much jargon and slang in other languages that their respective media (if said media company even exists) would never use, and with LLM’s translating I can ask and learn the context of those slang words and find more content from actual humans Whats irrelevant is how that helps the French case. Appeals to authority with authorities none of us would actually respect? We dont even know enough about the case, its one thing to arrest the CEO for a platform, its another to arrest an individual for involvement in something salacious and we dont know at all yet.
- eightysixfour 2y agoPeople are up in arms about this and the "stifling of free speech," but it seems like there is only one sentence in this article that really matters: > "Telegram refused to share information or documents with investigators when required by law." Am I the only one who thinks that if you are a global company operating in a country and you refuse to comply with a lawful subpoena in that country, no one should be surprised when you get arrested? If they cannot comply, due to encryption, or a lack of logging, that may be a different story. But no one has stated or implied that anywhere I have seen.
- jadtz 2y agoIf the app is not country compliant, France can just ask the app stores to remove it from their country apps selection. But some countries want to have their cake and eat it too.
- ivan_gammel 2y agoWhy would France do that instead of investigating a French citizen within its jurisdiction?
- mrtksn 2y agoRemoving/blocking apps deprives users who benefit from these apps. That's the actual freedom violation but for some reason a lot of people are ready to accept it as solution. It's very sad actually. Just lock up the people responsible for the problems, why would you deprive people from the products the use? A future I want to live is a future where offenders get punished, not a future where I'm dissolved of using products that offenders used to offend.
- diggan 2y ago> A future I want to live is a future where offenders get punished, not a future where I'm dissolved of using products that offenders used to offend. So with that said, you're actually against the arrest of Pavel Durov as I understand it? As he's being arrested for not committing any crimes, but for not giving information about the people who are committing the actual crimes.
- Invictus0 2y agoWe already know how this will end. Russia will arrest a few French tourists on trumped up charges and they'll sit in a sad Russian jail until Macron intervenes and lets Durov go. It's the same playbook over and over. Durov is like the Russian Mark Zuckerberg, people at this level are not touchable by the law if they have the czar's favor.
- lucianbr 2y ago> Macron intervenes and lets Durov go No clue if this will happen, or how much of a good/bad thing it would be. But it would sure be funny to happen after Macron publicly stated the executive had nothing to do with the arrest. Guess the judiciary is independent... some of the time.
- axegon_ 2y agoShame.
- ararar 2y ago"French prosecutors say Telegram CEO freed from custody, will appear in court" No, he won't.
- bcn 2y agoPolitico claims to have (exclusively) seen a French administrative document that narrows the focus to a single case where Telegram did not respond to legal request for user information. Copied from the article, here are a few key points: > The arrest warrants were issued after the messaging platform gave "no answer" to an earlier judicial request to identify a Telegram user, according to the document, which was shared with POLITICO by a person directly involved in the case. > Warrants for Pavel and his brother Nikolai, the platform’s co-founder, were issued on March 25 over charges including “complicity in possessing, distributing, offering or making available pornographic images of minors, in an organized group.” > The warrants were issued after an undercover investigation into Telegram led by the cybercrime branch of the Paris prosecutor's office, during which a suspect discussed luring underaged girls into sending "self-produced child pornography," and then threatening to release it on social media. > The suspect also told the investigators he had raped a young child, according to the document. Telegram did not respond to the French authorities’ request to identify the suspect. > There’s no suggestion either of the Durov brothers were directly involved in any of the illegal activities identified by the investigation. -https://www.politico.eu/article/exclusive-telegram-ceo-brother-nikolai-durov-wanted-france-authorities-pavel-durov/ https://www.politico.eu/article/exclusive-telegram-ceo-broth...
- _trampeltier 2y agoNow this thing goes in since a few days. Are I'm the only one who wonder, why France does not release a proper press release? Is this really a country in central Europe, they catch a super public figure and just .. say nothing?!?