5 ms·

>if you've been a stable nation for century+ Quebec has tried to separate twice in the past 50 years, and comes within a Brexit's margin of actually getting it

by qball 2y ago

>if you've been a stable nation for century+ Quebec has tried to separate twice in the past 50 years, and comes within a Brexit's margin of actually getting it done (and if it wasn't for Montreal, they'd already be gone). The seed of that separation was, naturally, caused by a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada. Canada isn't actually as stable a country as Ottawa might have you believe.

alephnerd 2y ago
This might make you feel old, but the referendum was 30 years ago, and Black October was 55 years ago. The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now. An entire generation of Canadians didn't exist or don't remember that. I'd argue the GWOT, the Great Recession, and COVID have had a stronger impact on modern (2020s) Canadian politics and discourse than the Quebec Independence Movement.
- qball 2y ago
  >The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now. Quebec's Separatist party has complete electoral dominance (except for Montreal, but Montreal is the least Quebec part of Quebec) and has the ability to force the government's hand on most things. If the Eastern Big City Party loses the next election as is projected (and the Bloc correspondingly loses all of its power) they'll be back.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    PQ has largely transitioned away from soverignity and largely campaigns on culture war issues like Bill 21 and immigration. Only voters who are 65+ are split on soverignity. Every other age demographic overwhelmingly supports remaining in Canada [0] This can be seen with the CAQ, which has poached most of the PQ's leadership and campaigns almost entirely on Bill 21 and immigration [1], not on "Quebec Libre" [0] - https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/17/quebec-francois-legault-referendum-00040228 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/17/quebec-francois-leg... [1] - https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-groups-for-and-against-quebec-secularism-law-react-to-ruling https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-groups-f...
    - philistine 2y ago
      Are you completely out of the loop that much? The PQ is first in the polls, and has promised a referendum within a first mandate. It's a whole fucking big deal that they managed to lead in polls right now while promising that.
      - alephnerd 2y ago
        Polling does prove that it's driven by immigration and culture war concerns, not Sovereignty [0] [0] - https://policyoptions.irpp.org/fr/magazines/mai-2024/sondage-souverainete-parti-quebecois/ https://policyoptions.irpp.org/fr/magazines/mai-2024/sondage...
        philistine 2y ago
        > PQ has largely transitioned away from soverignity[sic] and largely campaigns on culture war issues like Bill 21 and immigration. Your initial point was not that people chose the PQ over language concerns, but that the party had transitioned. The party has done no such thing. It's doubling down on separatism if anything. It's crazy.
Scoundreller 2y ago
The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts. Did you mean Lower Canada instead of Upper Canada?
- TMWNN 2y ago
  >The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts. Had Quebec voted Yes, Quebec City would have immediately declared independence. <https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/tkg5gf/who_has_more_autonomy_canadian_provinces_american/i1s9jgh/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/tkg5gf/who_has_...>
amanwithnoplan 2y ago
I have no idea what "a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada" refers to unless you meant the northwest and Red River rebellions, in which case it really stretches my (anglo) mind how that has more to do with Quebec separatism than any of the other grievances.
- qball 2y ago
  Closing off any future French-speaking (read: sharing more Quebec values) Western expansion was (and really, still is) actually a big deal.
  - waldohatesyou 2y ago
    Wait isn’t it the opposite? Manitoba was founded as a French Canadian province wasn’t it?
    - sbsudbdjd 2y ago
      but because the natives (metis) spoke French by the time the Brits got there.
  - boringg 2y ago
    I mean it was a smart move for the brits to retain control of language and culture whether you agree with them or not. I don't know how that still is a problem?
boringg 2y ago
It isn't as homogenous a society as an outsider would think but I can assure it’s quite stable as a country. Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine. Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto. They would go from a poor economic performer to exceptionally poor.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto. City of import? Speaking as a tourist at least, Montreal is a much more interesting place to visit than Toronto. Toronto might be larger and have a bigger economy with more industry, but for a tourist I can't think of any reason to visit offhand. >Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine. Separatists might not be that worried about economic power. Are all the Brexit voters unhappy with their vote now? A few maybe, but most probably are happy to be out of the EU, and blame their continued economic problems on immigrants, the EU, etc.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - neom 2y ago
    Your Toronto/MTL tourism comparison isn't wrong, Toronto is ugly and boring, MTL is beautiful and fun. People love to talk about Quebec and separatism, they can go if they want, but they owe us $300B, so I doubt they are going any time soon, their "country" would likely fall over on go.
    - philistine 2y ago
      What a great way to make me feel Canadian unity. Guess the country's not as stable if fear and threats are how you keep the minorities in line.

by qball 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

This might make you feel old, but the referendum was 30 years ago, and Black October was 55 years ago. The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now. An entire generation of Canadians didn't exist or don't remember that. I'd argue the GWOT, the Great Recession, and COVID have had a stronger impact on modern (2020s) Canadian politics and discourse than the Quebec Independence Movement.

qball 2y ago
>The whole Quebec movement is basically dead in the water now. Quebec's Separatist party has complete electoral dominance (except for Montreal, but Montreal is the least Quebec part of Quebec) and has the ability to force the government's hand on most things. If the Eastern Big City Party loses the next election as is projected (and the Bloc correspondingly loses all of its power) they'll be back.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  PQ has largely transitioned away from soverignity and largely campaigns on culture war issues like Bill 21 and immigration. Only voters who are 65+ are split on soverignity. Every other age demographic overwhelmingly supports remaining in Canada [0] This can be seen with the CAQ, which has poached most of the PQ's leadership and campaigns almost entirely on Bill 21 and immigration [1], not on "Quebec Libre" [0] - https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/17/quebec-francois-legault-referendum-00040228 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/17/quebec-francois-leg... [1] - https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-groups-for-and-against-quebec-secularism-law-react-to-ruling https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bill-21-groups-f...
  - philistine 2y ago
    Are you completely out of the loop that much? The PQ is first in the polls, and has promised a referendum within a first mandate. It's a whole fucking big deal that they managed to lead in polls right now while promising that.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      Polling does prove that it's driven by immigration and culture war concerns, not Sovereignty [0] [0] - https://policyoptions.irpp.org/fr/magazines/mai-2024/sondage-souverainete-parti-quebecois/ https://policyoptions.irpp.org/fr/magazines/mai-2024/sondage...
      - philistine 2y ago
        > PQ has largely transitioned away from soverignity[sic] and largely campaigns on culture war issues like Bill 21 and immigration. Your initial point was not that people chose the PQ over language concerns, but that the party had transitioned. The party has done no such thing. It's doubling down on separatism if anything. It's crazy.

Scoundreller 2y ago

The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts. Did you mean Lower Canada instead of Upper Canada?

TMWNN 2y ago
>The separation vote wasn’t sanctioned by the Feds, so even if they got a majority, it would probably get shut down by the courts. Had Quebec voted Yes, Quebec City would have immediately declared independence. <https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/tkg5gf/who_has_more_autonomy_canadian_provinces_american/i1s9jgh/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/tkg5gf/who_has_...>

amanwithnoplan 2y ago

I have no idea what "a military conflict between what would become Western Canada and what used to be Upper Canada" refers to unless you meant the northwest and Red River rebellions, in which case it really stretches my (anglo) mind how that has more to do with Quebec separatism than any of the other grievances.

qball 2y ago
Closing off any future French-speaking (read: sharing more Quebec values) Western expansion was (and really, still is) actually a big deal.
- waldohatesyou 2y ago
  Wait isn’t it the opposite? Manitoba was founded as a French Canadian province wasn’t it?
  - sbsudbdjd 2y ago
    but because the natives (metis) spoke French by the time the Brits got there.
- boringg 2y ago
  I mean it was a smart move for the brits to retain control of language and culture whether you agree with them or not. I don't know how that still is a problem?

boringg 2y ago

It isn't as homogenous a society as an outsider would think but I can assure it’s quite stable as a country. Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine. Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto. They would go from a poor economic performer to exceptionally poor.

shiroiushi 2y ago
>Quebec has been sputtering since the 80s after their last referendum vote and since montreal lost its status as a city of import to Toronto. City of import? Speaking as a tourist at least, Montreal is a much more interesting place to visit than Toronto. Toronto might be larger and have a bigger economy with more industry, but for a tourist I can't think of any reason to visit offhand. >Quebec exiting anytime soon would be annoying for the country but a tragic mistake for quebec especially in seeing how poorly it has workout for the UK which had been an economic engine. Separatists might not be that worried about economic power. Are all the Brexit voters unhappy with their vote now? A few maybe, but most probably are happy to be out of the EU, and blame their continued economic problems on immigrants, the EU, etc.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- neom 2y ago
  Your Toronto/MTL tourism comparison isn't wrong, Toronto is ugly and boring, MTL is beautiful and fun. People love to talk about Quebec and separatism, they can go if they want, but they owe us $300B, so I doubt they are going any time soon, their "country" would likely fall over on go.
  - philistine 2y ago
    What a great way to make me feel Canadian unity. Guess the country's not as stable if fear and threats are how you keep the minorities in line.