5 ms·

>It turns out molecular genetics has (for lack of a better word) thoroughly debunked [the view that Intelligence is significantly heritable]. There is also a r

>It turns out molecular genetics has (for lack of a better word) thoroughly debunked [the view that Intelligence is significantly heritable]. There is also a replication crisis in post-modern science. Not to mention, is it even legal, let alone reasonably possible for a study to publish in a real journal the view that Intelligence is heritable, in particular when it concerns race? This topic is arguably the in the top 3 forbidden taboos of western society. In European countries you can face charges of hate speech for even suggesting this, let alone dedicating a life of study regarding a certain conclusion. That an article like this amounts to semantic evasion of the matter, like the post by gwervc here describes, does not give credibility to the side which continues to maintain that evolution has [by all significant measures] stopped at the neck.

brookst 2y ago
> In European countries you can face charges of hate speech for even suggesting this Source?
- randomdata 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41368174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41368174
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/sormland/hd-tar-upp-fallet-med-tidigare-regionpolitikerns-iq-uttalande https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/sormland/hd-tar-upp-fallet... SVT is the Swedish government news agency. The article describes a politician facing charges for suggesting that South Sudanese people have a lower IQ.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    There's no empirical evidence that South Sudanese people, as a population, have lower IQ, therefore this cannot be interpreted as anything but an attempt to denigrate an entire people
    - rosmax_1337 2y ago
      Which highlights that even suggesting this is illegal in countries in Europe.
      - DiscourseFan 2y ago
        No it highlights that a right-wing politician known for saying inflammatory things about migrants made a comment for purely political purposes and clearly did not care about the underlying scientific validity of his claim, since it actually does not exist.
        rosmax_1337 2y ago
        Can you source that it is actually legal to say that an ethnic group of people have a lower IQ, in Sweden? I live in Sweden, and can attest to my own knowledge of the law, whilst not being a lawyer, that it is not legal. Let alone, reasonably possible therefore to have these things published in a journal here.
        DiscourseFan 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - brookst 2y ago
    The original claim was that it is illegal to study or to publish on such a claim. For pure slander in a non-scientific context without evidence, sure, some countries prohibit that.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tsimionescu 2y ago
No reasonable scientist would study a correlation between a physical trait (intelligence) and a socio-economic concept (race). It would be like studying if height is correlated with "proper grammar". Edit: race, not "rave"
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  Is race a socio-economic concept? Can you explain what you mean by that?
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    Its not genetically mediated. Indians are a "race" someone from Assam, someone from Rajasthan, and someone from Tamil Nadu may differ dramatically in terms of their genetic heritage and even racial appearance, simply because they are defined in terms of associations which are not purely to do with genetic lineage.
    - rosmax_1337 2y ago
      Right, but this doesn't invalidate the idea that genetic groups exist and that heritability can significantly affect traits such as intelligence. It simply moves the question to, which genetic groups are correct to create distinctions from. The adage that there is more human genetic diversity in Africa than outside it comes to mind.
      - DiscourseFan 2y ago
        >which genetic groups are correct to create distinctions from. None, because you cannot create a grouping without imposing certain parameters which are non-empirical in nature. Genetic science =! race science. Race as a concept is almost entirely mediated by social concerns and abstractions from concrete reality.
        rosmax_1337 2y ago
DiscourseFan 2y ago
>Not to mention, is it even legal, let alone reasonably possible for a study to publish in a real journal the view that Intelligence is heritable, in particular when it concerns race? What do you mean by race? Because race isn't genetically determined, its socially determined--two people of a very different "race," can actually be quite closely related genetically, its just that their appearances differ. >does not give credibility to the side which continues to maintain that evolution has [by all significant measures] stopped at the neck. Its not that evolution has or hasn't stopped at the neck, its that the IQ test as a single objective measure of intelligence, like measuring height, is incredibly flawed since it has changed dramatically in the decades when these studies have been conducted. Whether or how someone is intelligent cannot be measured empirically by a single standard since purely intelligible things, like concepts, math, artistic ability, by nature cannot have an empirical appearance. But you know if someone is smart, and you know it because they tend to do things that are smart. But that's only helpful at the level of a single individual, its not something that can be measured population wide. >post-modern science. The most "post-modern" thing here is your comment, which you clearly wrote without having actually read the article thoroughly.
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  IQ remains one of the most highly predictive traits you even can measure from someones psychology, predicting crime rates, happiness, divorces. Just about everything actually is predicted by IQ in someones like, to an extent to which philosophical questions about determinism even can be brought up in discussion. Race is genetically determined. Are you suggesting that for example breeds of dogs can swap from Labrador to Golden Retriever based on vibes during their upbringing. The term "black" as a racial group is of course an extremely crude and large genetic grouping, much like saying that perhaps "retrievers" are a race of dogs. Nonetheless, groups remain genetically determined.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    Dogs have far less genetic diversity than humans since they have been selectively bread for thousands of years, leading in many cases to extreme hereditary issues: often there are breeds which have these problems as a part of their breeding. [0] IQ also correlates strongly with economic and social class, which also correlates strongly with crime and happiness and probably also divorce. If you think, then, that race, as a determinate measure of IQ, is determinate of economic and social class, then you are actually a racist, plain and simple. But, you might not think that, I'm just trying to point this out to you. [0]https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/inbreeding-of-purebred-dogs-determined-from-dna https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/inbreeding-of-...

brookst 2y ago

> In European countries you can face charges of hate speech for even suggesting this Source?

randomdata 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41368174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41368174
rosmax_1337 2y ago
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/sormland/hd-tar-upp-fallet-med-tidigare-regionpolitikerns-iq-uttalande https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/sormland/hd-tar-upp-fallet... SVT is the Swedish government news agency. The article describes a politician facing charges for suggesting that South Sudanese people have a lower IQ.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  There's no empirical evidence that South Sudanese people, as a population, have lower IQ, therefore this cannot be interpreted as anything but an attempt to denigrate an entire people
  - rosmax_1337 2y ago
    Which highlights that even suggesting this is illegal in countries in Europe.
    - DiscourseFan 2y ago
      No it highlights that a right-wing politician known for saying inflammatory things about migrants made a comment for purely political purposes and clearly did not care about the underlying scientific validity of his claim, since it actually does not exist.
      - rosmax_1337 2y ago
        Can you source that it is actually legal to say that an ethnic group of people have a lower IQ, in Sweden? I live in Sweden, and can attest to my own knowledge of the law, whilst not being a lawyer, that it is not legal. Let alone, reasonably possible therefore to have these things published in a journal here.
        DiscourseFan 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
    [flagged]
- brookst 2y ago
  The original claim was that it is illegal to study or to publish on such a claim. For pure slander in a non-scientific context without evidence, sure, some countries prohibit that.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tsimionescu 2y ago

No reasonable scientist would study a correlation between a physical trait (intelligence) and a socio-economic concept (race). It would be like studying if height is correlated with "proper grammar". Edit: race, not "rave"

rosmax_1337 2y ago
Is race a socio-economic concept? Can you explain what you mean by that?
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  Its not genetically mediated. Indians are a "race" someone from Assam, someone from Rajasthan, and someone from Tamil Nadu may differ dramatically in terms of their genetic heritage and even racial appearance, simply because they are defined in terms of associations which are not purely to do with genetic lineage.
  - rosmax_1337 2y ago
    Right, but this doesn't invalidate the idea that genetic groups exist and that heritability can significantly affect traits such as intelligence. It simply moves the question to, which genetic groups are correct to create distinctions from. The adage that there is more human genetic diversity in Africa than outside it comes to mind.
    - DiscourseFan 2y ago
      >which genetic groups are correct to create distinctions from. None, because you cannot create a grouping without imposing certain parameters which are non-empirical in nature. Genetic science =! race science. Race as a concept is almost entirely mediated by social concerns and abstractions from concrete reality.
      - rosmax_1337 2y ago

DiscourseFan 2y ago

>Not to mention, is it even legal, let alone reasonably possible for a study to publish in a real journal the view that Intelligence is heritable, in particular when it concerns race? What do you mean by race? Because race isn't genetically determined, its socially determined--two people of a very different "race," can actually be quite closely related genetically, its just that their appearances differ. >does not give credibility to the side which continues to maintain that evolution has [by all significant measures] stopped at the neck. Its not that evolution has or hasn't stopped at the neck, its that the IQ test as a single objective measure of intelligence, like measuring height, is incredibly flawed since it has changed dramatically in the decades when these studies have been conducted. Whether or how someone is intelligent cannot be measured empirically by a single standard since purely intelligible things, like concepts, math, artistic ability, by nature cannot have an empirical appearance. But you know if someone is smart, and you know it because they tend to do things that are smart. But that's only helpful at the level of a single individual, its not something that can be measured population wide. >post-modern science. The most "post-modern" thing here is your comment, which you clearly wrote without having actually read the article thoroughly.

rosmax_1337 2y ago
IQ remains one of the most highly predictive traits you even can measure from someones psychology, predicting crime rates, happiness, divorces. Just about everything actually is predicted by IQ in someones like, to an extent to which philosophical questions about determinism even can be brought up in discussion. Race is genetically determined. Are you suggesting that for example breeds of dogs can swap from Labrador to Golden Retriever based on vibes during their upbringing. The term "black" as a racial group is of course an extremely crude and large genetic grouping, much like saying that perhaps "retrievers" are a race of dogs. Nonetheless, groups remain genetically determined.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  Dogs have far less genetic diversity than humans since they have been selectively bread for thousands of years, leading in many cases to extreme hereditary issues: often there are breeds which have these problems as a part of their breeding. [0] IQ also correlates strongly with economic and social class, which also correlates strongly with crime and happiness and probably also divorce. If you think, then, that race, as a determinate measure of IQ, is determinate of economic and social class, then you are actually a racist, plain and simple. But, you might not think that, I'm just trying to point this out to you. [0]https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/inbreeding-of-purebred-dogs-determined-from-dna https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/inbreeding-of-...