4 ms·

Spend the money to turn them into hotels and apartments

Animats 2y ago
Too much floor space far from windows in large-floor buildings. HVAC, electrical, and plumbing need a complete re-do.[1] There are attempts to subdivide office floors into long, skinny apartments with a bit of outside window. Possible, but expensive. [1] https://theconversation.com/empty-office-spaces-can-be-converted-to-residential-buildings-but-it-wont-be-affordable-207168 https://theconversation.com/empty-office-spaces-can-be-conve...
xp84 2y ago
People always say this, but in general most office buildings are exceedingly poor targets for this kind of reuse. Large floor plates, with windows only at the perimeters and a minimal amount of plumbing (usually at only 1-2 spots in the middle of each floor where the restrooms and pantries are). As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. Realistically the option is to find a price that attracts commercial use, or tear a lot of these down and build suitable homes in their place. I’m actually not convinced though that there’s as much point in drastically expanding the amount of downtown housing stock, while simultaneously deprecating the idea of actually going to an office. While 20-somethings are excited about city nightlife, that’s probably the only demographic which really cares about living right downtown if they don’t have a job downtown.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. There are no bad products, only bad prices. Meanwhile availability of mildly undesirable but still livable apartments would lower rents overall through supply and demand, which benefits everybody except landlords. > I’m actually not convinced though that there’s as much point in drastically expanding the amount of downtown housing stock, while simultaneously deprecating the idea of actually going to an office. The current problem is that building towers in the suburbs is prohibited by law and there isn't a lot of suitable empty land, so your options are to build housing in the city where it's allowed or not at all. Now, if you can get the suburbs rezoned for taller buildings, go right ahead, but in the meantime people are willing to take what they can get.
  - voisin 2y ago
    > There are no bad products, only bad prices. This sounds nice as a bumper sticker but have you actually given this much thought and concluded it is true? It seems totally incorrect to me.
    - digging 2y ago
      You say that, but could you really resist pallets of assorted styrofoam misprints at $0.05/ton??
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      Suppose you have a windowless room in the interior of an office tower next to the mechanical room which constantly makes a lot of noise. You're not going to get as much for this as a penthouse apartment, but somebody is still going to pay you for it as a storage room. Suppose you have some metal chairs. They're so poorly designed that if anyone were to actually sit in one it would immediately break in half and injure them. That doesn't mean they're worthless, it mean they're scrap metal, which is commercially valuable. Suppose you have some industrial waste. Literally no one wants it and in fact you would have to pay someone to dispose of it for you. Therefore, it has a negative price. Negative prices are prices. The disposal company likes them very much. Their whole business is to buy this product from people for a negative amount of money. There are no bad products, only bad prices.
- chii 2y ago
  > As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. only if they carve out many apartments on one floor. Imagine living in a large apartment that occupies the entire floor (or half of it). Surely that would attract monied tenants.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Sure, some people might like living in a huge apartment that takes up a whole commercial floor, but how many can afford it? The landlord isn't going to rent out that much floorspace cheaply, and even if they did, can you imagine what the electricity cost for HVAC would be? We've seen this kind of living arrangement in the Blade Runner movies (J.F. Sebastian lived in some old hotel I think, and Deckard in the newer movie lived in a casino I think), but they presumably didn't have to pay rent, and they probably didn't have any heat either. They also lived alone and didn't have families complaining about it being too cold inside. I suppose you could put up some insulated walls (if they aren't already there) and make a smaller apartment within the space where you keep the HVAC on, to keep your energy costs manageable, but then you're back to the previous issue about the cost of rent, because of the sheer amount of floorspace. If the location is desirable, it's going to be too valuable to rent out at the price of a normal apartment.
ggm 2y ago
It's really hard. Nothing like "most" of the stocks are viable, they are expensive conversions, and it turns out few people with choices want the outcome because of the problems which follow: to get volume you get few windows per unit-housing. Ceilings are low, and the office design put all the water and waste close to the lift core so the design of a modern home with en-suites &c is hard. I do think the massive homeless problem in my economy (Australia) should drive to doing this conversion, but everything I read about it over the last 2-3 years said it was nothing like as simple as people thought. I begin to think knocking them down like we see footage of in China may be the best option. Or, paying socialised costs to convert into public housing but at a significant premium compared to green field.

Too much floor space far from windows in large-floor buildings. HVAC, electrical, and plumbing need a complete re-do.[1] There are attempts to subdivide office floors into long, skinny apartments with a bit of outside window. Possible, but expensive. [1] https://theconversation.com/empty-office-spaces-can-be-converted-to-residential-buildings-but-it-wont-be-affordable-207168 https://theconversation.com/empty-office-spaces-can-be-conve...

xp84 2y ago

People always say this, but in general most office buildings are exceedingly poor targets for this kind of reuse. Large floor plates, with windows only at the perimeters and a minimal amount of plumbing (usually at only 1-2 spots in the middle of each floor where the restrooms and pantries are). As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. Realistically the option is to find a price that attracts commercial use, or tear a lot of these down and build suitable homes in their place. I’m actually not convinced though that there’s as much point in drastically expanding the amount of downtown housing stock, while simultaneously deprecating the idea of actually going to an office. While 20-somethings are excited about city nightlife, that’s probably the only demographic which really cares about living right downtown if they don’t have a job downtown.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. There are no bad products, only bad prices. Meanwhile availability of mildly undesirable but still livable apartments would lower rents overall through supply and demand, which benefits everybody except landlords. > I’m actually not convinced though that there’s as much point in drastically expanding the amount of downtown housing stock, while simultaneously deprecating the idea of actually going to an office. The current problem is that building towers in the suburbs is prohibited by law and there isn't a lot of suitable empty land, so your options are to build housing in the city where it's allowed or not at all. Now, if you can get the suburbs rezoned for taller buildings, go right ahead, but in the meantime people are willing to take what they can get.
- voisin 2y ago
  > There are no bad products, only bad prices. This sounds nice as a bumper sticker but have you actually given this much thought and concluded it is true? It seems totally incorrect to me.
  - digging 2y ago
    You say that, but could you really resist pallets of assorted styrofoam misprints at $0.05/ton??
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    Suppose you have a windowless room in the interior of an office tower next to the mechanical room which constantly makes a lot of noise. You're not going to get as much for this as a penthouse apartment, but somebody is still going to pay you for it as a storage room. Suppose you have some metal chairs. They're so poorly designed that if anyone were to actually sit in one it would immediately break in half and injure them. That doesn't mean they're worthless, it mean they're scrap metal, which is commercially valuable. Suppose you have some industrial waste. Literally no one wants it and in fact you would have to pay someone to dispose of it for you. Therefore, it has a negative price. Negative prices are prices. The disposal company likes them very much. Their whole business is to buy this product from people for a negative amount of money. There are no bad products, only bad prices.
chii 2y ago
> As much as people wish for this, people would hate living in apartments hastily carved from office towers. only if they carve out many apartments on one floor. Imagine living in a large apartment that occupies the entire floor (or half of it). Surely that would attract monied tenants.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Sure, some people might like living in a huge apartment that takes up a whole commercial floor, but how many can afford it? The landlord isn't going to rent out that much floorspace cheaply, and even if they did, can you imagine what the electricity cost for HVAC would be? We've seen this kind of living arrangement in the Blade Runner movies (J.F. Sebastian lived in some old hotel I think, and Deckard in the newer movie lived in a casino I think), but they presumably didn't have to pay rent, and they probably didn't have any heat either. They also lived alone and didn't have families complaining about it being too cold inside. I suppose you could put up some insulated walls (if they aren't already there) and make a smaller apartment within the space where you keep the HVAC on, to keep your energy costs manageable, but then you're back to the previous issue about the cost of rent, because of the sheer amount of floorspace. If the location is desirable, it's going to be too valuable to rent out at the price of a normal apartment.

ggm 2y ago

It's really hard. Nothing like "most" of the stocks are viable, they are expensive conversions, and it turns out few people with choices want the outcome because of the problems which follow: to get volume you get few windows per unit-housing. Ceilings are low, and the office design put all the water and waste close to the lift core so the design of a modern home with en-suites &c is hard. I do think the massive homeless problem in my economy (Australia) should drive to doing this conversion, but everything I read about it over the last 2-3 years said it was nothing like as simple as people thought. I begin to think knocking them down like we see footage of in China may be the best option. Or, paying socialised costs to convert into public housing but at a significant premium compared to green field.